Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

T

999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 07:02

Nobody told me I was meant to be wearing a uniform, as a non-civilian.

The idea that Women's Place meeting are going to murder the OP (with what, pronouns?) is eye rollingly stupid. Nobody actually believes this shit, not even the OP.

ocelot41 · 07/04/2018 07:10

Hello OP, I wanted to say thanks for coming here. I am genuinely undecided about all of this. My first instinct is to be kind and try to help anyone who is struggling be more accepted. As someone who has experienced sexual violence, I am also genuinely scared of anyone with working male tackle being around me when I am changing. I also don't like 'femininity' being defined in very stereotypical ways that many of us have fought to get away from. My butch lesbian friends are women just as much as my friend who loves sparkles and heels. My friends who love hard aggressive sport, like contact rugby, are women just like those who love baking and sewing. We are just different people - that's all.

Springnowplease · 07/04/2018 07:38

The argument from men that they have been "living as a woman" by using the women's toilets and the women didn't notice or mind is reminiscent of the men whose wives divorce them "right out of the blue with never a hint of a problem".

Of course we noticed. Mostly we are too polite to say anything. But we notice. The walk, the features, the hands and the voice are masculine. No matter how much some want to be women they just aren't and they hate us because we are everything they want to be but can never be.

We are usually kind and as long as you don't try to take away our rights then we will be tolerant but aggressive TWAs are on a hiding to nothing.

Make us use the pronouns all you like, legislate against women all you like. You can't legislate our thoughts. We know, we see you and we know what you are.

TERFragetteCity · 07/04/2018 07:53

As for the belief that MN 'civilians' need rescuing and 'would I get out alive' in regard to a woman's place meeting

This is utterly pathetic.

Civilians sounds like the OP thinks they are the authority on this
Get out alive? The Women's Place meetings have Trans people speaking, and hosting joint events. To be sure people are safer there than outside where women were calling Miranda Yardley a TERF and shouting in people's faces. A women who attended was later assaulted at a union event just for having been at a meeting.

Utterly pathetic. And utterly toxic. And puts what we might call 'genuine' trans women in the front line. This is what is putting people at risk, not women on a forum discussing the risk.

picklemepopcorn · 07/04/2018 08:19

I've learned a lot. I need to watch the ted films, and navy bunks allow surprising activities!

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 08:25

I mean, not sure I can really blame them in the latter situation, must be awfully boring being on a boat for months at a time...still, whoever they're sharing a room with really doesn't need to see that.

Juells · 07/04/2018 08:51

Ohmygod I have pictures in my head now :( I don't even know if that's what's being discussed, maybe I just have a filthy mind.

LangCleg · 07/04/2018 08:54

They have very few followers but seems to be using this thread to get attention from very active TRAs and trying to link up with them.

Is it like TRA hazing? You can only be an official member of our Twitter Club if you post in the witch's coven on the evil Mumsnet and get at least fifty replies. Or is it like a game and starting a Mumsnet thread is like levelling up?

Juells · 07/04/2018 08:58

Are there easter eggs?

SimonBridges · 07/04/2018 09:19

I’ve just thought something.
We are being call TERFs, the f standing for feminist.
However I can think of an awful lot of men who are a hundred mile from being feminist who would equally fail to agree that transwoman are women.
Men from angry BNP types right up to London city banker types.

They are the actual physical threat to transwoman.
They are the ones who will beat you up in the street.
They are they ones who will rape you, out of spite, when they discover you aren’t what they thought.
They are the ones who will stop your career.
They are the ones who will try and put their hands up your skirt.

So why are you just fussing with us women who want to keep our safe spaces. We are no threat to you, men are.

jellyfrizz · 07/04/2018 09:30

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

I know we’ve moved on from the initial post but this bit made me think about the flip side:
How has self-ID helped people in Ireland? Has transphobia reduced? Discrimination? Trans hate crime?

HarryLovesDraco · 07/04/2018 09:33

Oh Donna does believe that terfs want transwomen murdered - or he pretends to. Look at this tweet from his timeline

T
ReluctantCamper · 07/04/2018 09:33

How has self-ID helped people in Ireland? Has transphobia reduced? Discrimination? Trans hate crime?

Oh, now that it interesting.

Yes, if you want to change from the status quo you need to be able to explain why surely?

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 09:38

Kinder souls may think Donna is delusional but genuinely fearful. I'm just a teensy bit more cynical and think Donna is attempting propaganda (clumsily).

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 09:42

I'm with you, Angry. The "Would I get out alive?!" and the attempt to bring this conversation into a discussion about how transphobic women's words are but focussing on a trans identified male who was brutally beaten to death by a gang of homophobic men in Brazil did it for me.

Though I do also think OP is deluded as well.

MargeH · 07/04/2018 09:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 07/04/2018 09:47

I'm so jaded these days I assumed most twitter accounts are fake photos with the content written by a bot, agency or bored kid trying to gaslight people.

changeypants · 07/04/2018 09:47

If Donna believes that Twitter post they wrote you would think their most pressing question to us here would have been about why we condone the murders of trans people.

AngryAttackKittens · 07/04/2018 09:51

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them"

merrymouse · 07/04/2018 09:54

Re: Ireland, I think that for many simplifying the process of changing gender is an end in itself.

However, what gender is, how you recognise it and what it has to do with anything is yet to be explained.

Teacuphiccup · 07/04/2018 09:55

But I don’t think donna was saying it was Mumsnet who condoned the murder, just that there are people in the uk that do, and I do think there are some horrendously transphobic bigots in the uk.

Datun · 07/04/2018 09:58

You know it's abusive when none of it makes sense.

The highest risk to transwomen is prostitution. Radical feminists want to abolish prostitution. But that's a bad thing. Damn SWERFS.

Radical feminists are blamed for the deaths of transwomen everywhere.

But radical feminist's number one issue is male violence.

None of it makes sense. Because it's full of lies.

AsAProfessionalFekko · 07/04/2018 10:00

So the radical feminists are actually angry young blokes who go around beating people to death? Well who've thought it?

yetanothertranswoman · 07/04/2018 10:00

Men are afraid that women will laugh at them, women are afraid that men will kill them

Many people are afraid men will kill them.

Because men are overwhelmingly the population who kill other people.

yetanothertranswoman · 07/04/2018 10:03

Radical feminists are blamed for the deaths of transwomen everywhere

Radical feminists aren't to blame for the death of transwomen. Male violence is to blame for the death and assaults on transwomen. And transmen. And women.

Personally I worry about a changed climate towards the trans community.