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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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19
LastGirlOnTheLeft · 06/04/2018 12:41

What Lang said!!

(I couldn't even try to put it as succinctly as she).

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 12:41

I wonder if the op has the guts to come back......

TheChampagneGalop · 06/04/2018 12:42

I love how OP, despite being new, is telling us that MN has been INVADED by trolls because the women here couldn't possibly have opinion on things that affect us.
Mansplaining ultra deluxe!

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 12:42

And regarding the law - as a former legal academic, particularly focused on rights / equality legislation - IMO it is incredibly important to consider all the unintended consequences that a piece of legislation may have, and those that may arise through its practical application.

So true. Yet transactivists want hashtag nodebate and seek to silence any women who try to meet to discuss it.

FloraFox · 06/04/2018 12:43

We have a common enemy....men.....and yet people like op would rather attack the best allies they could ever ask for.

I just don't get it.

I don’t believe we have a common enemy. TIMs are not susceptible to male violence like women are. TIMs fear ridicule and crave validation but they are not victims of male violence as women are. This is why they are not concerned about men being able to access women’s spaces using this law. They are not more vulnerable as a result. Men don’t want to rape TIMs and mostly wouldn’t assume they could overpower them as they do with women. The statistics for the UK show that TIMs are not subject to an increased threat and are, in fact, at lower risk that both women and other men.

Datun · 06/04/2018 12:44

Brilliant post LangCleg.

When you strip away women's pressure and socialisation to capitulate and be nice, against their own interests, that post is exactly what logic looks like.

I'm sure the women posting on here have a myriad of feelings. But I can guarantee you that one of the prominent ones is frustration and anger that we can see the gaslighting, hear the narcissism, and experience, over and over, the self entitled dominance with every point debated.

Women everywhere are saying no. Men simply can't understand it.

It's come as such a shock they are scrabbling around to account for it. Infiltration, far right invasion, radicalisation.

It would be funny if it wasn't so very telling.

No, as every Mumsnetter knows, is a complete sentence.

spontaneousgiventime · 06/04/2018 12:45

OP, Seeing as you use the woman's loo's, changing rooms etc, you do realise that if this all goes ahead and men can simply sign a form to have access to those spaces, then you are also at more risk?

TrollHunterGeneral · 06/04/2018 12:45

To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am

I think a lot of us are in that boat

Aye

R0wantrees · 06/04/2018 12:48

To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am

likewise... and worth considering how, why and the consequences of it being framed as a 'war of two sides'

picklemepopcorn · 06/04/2018 12:49

"To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am

I think a lot of us are in that boat

Aye"

Me too!

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 12:49

FloraFox

Hmmm yeah I see exactly what you mean.

Tbh I was just trying to draw a common ground I think but really you are 100% correct.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/04/2018 12:51

Male bodies and male socialisation harm women. Women's spaces are there to protect us from some of this harm.

If you are somebody who has a penis and a sense that your feelings are more valid than those of women, then without question you belong to the category of people who by definition should not be in women's spaces.

TheGoldenBough · 06/04/2018 12:52

To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am

God yes. So many times yes.

picklemepopcorn · 06/04/2018 12:55

It's really sad that this conversation hurts the feelings of transwomen so much. Sadly, the debate has been forced out of polite accommodation, and into a fight for existence and life- and it's not the trans people who are at risk.

Nothing being debated will prevent men transitioning, cross dressing, calling themselves by female pronouns or name.

It will however result in more assaults on women and children, more repression and oppression of women, women being unable to go to even more places than are already difficult.

We are the ones in danger here, not you.

LangCleg · 06/04/2018 12:56

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Springnowplease · 06/04/2018 12:59

Here's a truth for you.

Women don't have penises.

CharlieParley · 06/04/2018 12:59

@DonnaBe

Would I get out alive? Seriously, Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women.

The only dangerous, aggressive people at the WPUK meeting I attended in Edinburgh were your friends outside, Sisters Uncut, with their mysoginist, hateful posters.

The police advised us - the women - to leave in groups to stay safe.

When we did, or tried to, these anti-women trans activists crowded us, shouted insults at us, banged pots in our faces and right in the ear of one woman with a hearing problem to whom this actually was dangerous. They did this after also desperately trying to drown out the voices of the women inside the meeting who were speaking about their personal experiences of childhood sexual abuse and domestic violence.

The anti-women trans activists wore balaclavas and scarves to hide all but their eyes, but held up a dozen phones and filmed all of the women leaving. This is how the violent anti-women trans activists at the union picket in England managed to identify the union rep who had attended a WPUK meeting. Which is all she did btw, attend it, no more no less - a women's meeting in a free country and you tell us we aren't losing rights. What about women's right to free assembly?

I actually attended to find out if WPUK were transphobic as trans rights campaigners like you always claim btw. Instead I found a meeting that discussed matters concerning women's safety and women's rights, safeguarding issues for children and transsexual people's concerns about self-id. Trans people were present and warmly welcomed - as was everyone there. Even the anti-women trans activists outside were invited to join us and share their concerns with us. They declined.

But if we have another meeting in Scotland and you want to attend, to listen to our concerns and share yours in the respectful debate that follows the panel speakers, I would be happy to meet you beforehand to make sure you feel safe and comfortable attending.

Terfmore · 06/04/2018 13:00

Men are really pissed off and confused that they no longer have half the human race to pat them on the head and tell them how wonderful they are.

We know that women are most at risk at the end or shortly after the end of a relationship. It feels a bit like that. The death throes of an abusive relationship.

We're not taking you back, it doesn't matter how much you cry, say you're going to kill yourselves, abuse our children and all the rest.

rocketgirl22 · 06/04/2018 13:00

I was going to comment but the op seems to have been seen off!

Invasion indeed..how insulting.

I hope this issue gets the discussion it needs in parliament before it is too late. Anyone fancy meeting with the MP to prove our motherly credentials? Just google your local MP and email to ask for an appointment. I might talk about the bins whilst I am there. But that is a whole new thread!

FloraFox · 06/04/2018 13:01

Lana it’s very natural for us to seek common ground, isn’t it? I also think we assume the other side will also try to seek common ground but they don’t. They just demand capitulation. How very, umm, male.

rocketgirl22 · 06/04/2018 13:02

perhaps that will be my opening line to my MP springnowplease

WOMEN DON'T HAVE PENISES.

That might be an icebreaker. Will keep you updated

MissPiggysKarateChop · 06/04/2018 13:02

Having read the thread more fully I am with LangCleg with nothing more to be said really. Thanks for the articulate and accurate post LangCleg.

TheChampagneGalop · 06/04/2018 13:04

You all rock and not a single one of you is a fucking invader.

I'll drink to that! Wine

TheChampagneGalop · 06/04/2018 13:05

(Oops, quote from LangCleg)

TinyRick · 06/04/2018 13:06

To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am

To paraphrase The Simpsons;

I used to be with The Left, but then they changed what The Left was. Now what I thought was The Left isn't it, and what is The Left seems weird and scary to me...