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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:07

I think it's good to be angry at this situation tbh.

As women we have been conditioned to try and settle things "nicely", be the peacemakers, be the ones to provide solutions to problems caused by men.

Throughout history "angry" women (ie those who stand up for themselves) have been told they should ask nicer/be more accomodating or been accused of being anything from a witch to a terc.
We are told repeatedly by men that if we had only phrased it better/been less shouty/anyone of countless hundreds of "reasons" they use to pretend not to understand the issue or shut us up.

Well I'm fucking angry.

And I don't give a tiny flying shit if that means society sees me as a bitter man hating old witch, or a terf, or just "jealous"......

I will not stand by and watch rights that we have only literally achieved in the last hundred years, by the sacrifice of liberty and lives of countless women, being trodden all over by regressive bullshit about gender feelz and the rights of men with penises.

Damn fucking right we should be angry as hell.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:09

I used to be with The Left, but then they changed what The Left was. Now what I thought was The Left isn't it, and what is The Left seems weird and scary to me...

Grin

This is exactly how I feel.

picklemepopcorn · 06/04/2018 13:09

It reminds me of that phrase on here 'I see you'.

Too often, transwomen come on here thinking they are right and we need it all explaining to us. They genuinely don't understand the whole situation, and cannot see themselves, so not know themselves because they are caught up in their own self image.
But we see you. And we show you yourselves. And you don't like it and you don't come back.

All respect to the other transwomen who hang around here, get their feelings hurt, then come back and try again. You rock. You are reflective, critical, and respectful. We learn from each other.

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:11

CharlieParley

That's an excellent post. I honestly think that people like Donna have no clue what women are being subjected to.

They think every time we mention something it's scaremongering.

Except now, the incidents, anecdotes and evidence are too overwhelming to ignore. Any poster, who is questioned, has a whole bunch at their fingertips. All different.

The propaganda being disseminated saying women are inciting hate and advocating for genocide, looks pretty pathetic when a feminist is offering to accompany a transwoman to a meeting, for their protection.

picklemepopcorn · 06/04/2018 13:11

And if this reform isn't going to make any difference, why are you fight8ng so hard for it?!

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 06/04/2018 13:13

Well, I haven't RTFT (too busy dealing with the consequences of my biology in the form of a small child and the bodily fluids thereof)

but

I am feeling quite angry about the breathtaking arrogance and patronising tone of the OP. You tell us that some posters on here have 'invaded' MN. You tell us that they are lying to us.

Well, despite being a biological woman, I can make up my own mind, thanks. Coming on and pretty much saying you're the only voice worth listening to is unlikely to make me take you seriously.

I note that in your OP there is no evidence to back up your statements. On the other hand, many of the long-term posters on here regularly post evidence in the form of facts and statistics which are verifiable from third sources. I have done a lot of reading around this subject and coming from an uninformed position of 'live and let live' I am now very gender critical and against the proposed changes to the law.

Your statement that there has been an 'invasion' of anti-trans posters and your statement they lie are both statements that do not match with the evidence I have seen on these boards in over a year of mostly lurking and sometimes posting. The evidence of my lived experience on MN if you like. I don't know where you get the 'anti-trans' thing from. Opposing the proposed change to the law is not being 'anti-trans'. In fact, quite the opposite: most posters are constantly falling all over themselves to say they support third spaces and people living as they choose. Just not changing the law to the detriment of biological (XX) women.

Back to the consequences of biology ( aka baby - really, what is the fascination with taking all the baby wipes out of the packet, anyone?).

RealityHasALiberalBias · 06/04/2018 13:14

@DonnaBe I would love to believe that you are arguing in good faith here, because you clearly demonstrate the fact that there is a huge amount of common ground between these two "sides", and that the areas of disagreement are often based on misunderstandings or falsehoods.

One of the major problems we gender critical feminists face is that our argument is rather academic, and based on an understanding of history, biology and anthropology that actually requires a fair bit of reading (not necessarily academic tomes) to grasp.

You agree with us on far more than you think you do, because you do not understand our position. You do not understand what biological determinism is, you do not appear to know what "social construct" means, and you are unable to grasp that "living as a woman" for many women (especially feminists) boils down solely to matters of biology.

If you are in good faith (and I'm not sure whether you are), I urge you to get better informed on these concepts, because I think you would be surprised at how much common ground we share.

For example, it is utterly ridiculous for you to want to "reach out" to infertile women. I am probably infertile - I've never tried to conceive, and am happily childfree, but I have messed up ovaries and ovulate very infrequently. My experience is not one of some kind of sad longing for a child that you, as a transwoman, can empathise with. It's a bloody pain in the arse. For twenty years I have had to take pregnancy tests every couple of months because without regular periods there is no way for me to be sure that my contraception is working. I still have to experience period pains, smear tests, pill check ups and the judgements of people who expect me to procreate and think I'm weird for not wanting to.

You have your biological challenges, but they are not, and cannot be, the same as mine. The challenges I face as a woman are based on my biology.

Yes, there are other challenges in life, and I'm sure we share some of those, but they are things that are not exclusive to women. The only ways in which my life differs from that of my male partner - or any male - are biological.

Everything else - pronouns, names, clothing, gender roles - they are all cultural constructs. Anyone can perform them, so they do not really constitute what it means to live as a woman. I have absolutely no problem with anyone adopting any aspect of any gender stereotype - I'll use whatever pronouns someone asks me to. I find gendered pronouns and honorifics ridiculous anyway. Please respect my right in turn not to be called "cis".

It's fantastic that some men want to adopt aspects of stereotyped femininity, because their very act of doing so challenges those stereotypes and proves that they do not add up to "woman". But there's no scientific evidence whatsoever for innate gender, or blue and pink brains. Forcing people to pretend there is through legislation isn't going to change that.

Performing femininity while asking the world to accept that it's the same as being a woman reinforces the gender stereotypes. Can you see that? It really is the crux of the issue. It's quite wrong to think that radical feminists want men and women to stay in stereotypical gender roles. We want the opposite.

Gender critical feminists do not believe all women should be feminine brood mares - we do not believe that gender roles are innate. You appear not to believe this either, because you said that gender is a social construct. If you understand what a social construct is, then you know that means there cannot be any such thing as an innate gender identity.

I completely understand that for people with gender dysphoria, there is an overwhelmingly strong feeling that they are in the wrong body. I am not diminishing that feeling - I understand that the feeling is very real and powerful. But there is no possible way for someone who was born one sex truly to know what it is like to be the opposite sex, because there is no evidence for male and female gendered brains. If transitioning brings some relief from the pain of the dysphoria, then that's a fantastic thing, and I support people's rights to present however they want, live however they want and be called whatever they want.

People with gender dysphoria are not the problem here, and not who the so-called TERFs are worried about. That's why so many of them support us - self-ID may reduce their access to treatment.

If you're for real DonnaBe, stick around, read some of the discussions here, listen and learn.

Geez this is long. Sorry chaps.

Teacuphiccup · 06/04/2018 13:16

I despair at how many trans activists really don’t understand what a social construct is.
Yes it means it’s constructed but it’s not constructed in isolation it’s contructed socially, by society.
So for example money is a social construct, we all know that the value of a piece of paper is only worth what we have decided it’s worth. Individually we don’t get to change it, I can’t decide that my £10 is worth £20. Though the value of money does shift and change depending on many factors, £20 will go further in Aberdeen than London for example.

Gender is a social contstruct, we can smash gender norms and reject it but we can’t individually decide they don’t exist. Social constructs are from the outside not the inside. You are not society on your own.

You can say well I’m going to reject gender and live like this but that won’t stop Society putting a gender on you.

dorade · 06/04/2018 13:17

I've been here 13 years. I haven't invaded.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 06/04/2018 13:18

Brilliant post Reality

Op you're not really a mumsnetter if you haven't had your arse handed to you at least once.

It stings but stick around, engage with what we're saying and educate yourself. Other transwomen have and they're welcome here. So many people have taken the trouble to try to explain things to you. No one here wishes you any harm but we do want to be listened to.

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 06/04/2018 13:21

Is this transplaining?

Do we silly little women need to have everything explained to us in simple terms?

Even the lawyers? The Mensa members? The sociologists? The researchers? The executives?

Mumsnet isn't just a bunch of indulgent, baby brained mums, you know?

Some of us actually have opinions without being told what to think.

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:22

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

I'd like to dispel this misogynistic myth once and for all.

There are 12 million unique users per month on mumsnet. Quite apart from anything else, that's an election right there.

And yes, some of those women are mothers. They also human rights lawyers, judges, barristers, politicians, engineers, software developers, journalists, endocrinologists, authors, trans people, physicists, biologists, doctors, surgeons, civil servants, teachers and psychologists.

As most are women, a great many are rape survivors and sexual assault victims. As well as being experts in child sexual assault, prison officers, police officers and statisticians.

The dripping sexism in fondly imagining that a site that has the word mum in it means that the opinions of the women members can be dismissed, is breathtaking.

Weezol · 06/04/2018 13:23

Reality All of that. All of it.

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:24

Furthermore, whether you are a stay-at-home mum, or High Court judge, is immaterial, as the only credential needed for an opinion, is being female.

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:29

Excellent Reality

TheGoldenBough · 06/04/2018 13:31

Donna had no intention of engaging in a debate. This thread has been shared on twitter.

Talking about the "nice supportive bubble" they have on twitter and all the aggression they're getting here...

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/04/2018 13:31

Ohh it's all such utter absolute bollocks. Gender identity? When a male person enacts their inner essence of femininity by feeling responsible for taking on unpaid caring roles which they prioritise by working in poorly-paid, low-status jobs, when they put others' needs before their own at all times, when they do all the shitwork in the home and constant emotional labour in order to validate others, then I might start to believe it's possible for someone socialised male to feel feminine.

Wearing lippy and fantasising about sexual humiliation? That's not even femininity, let alone womanhood.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:32

Reality breathtaking post.

Truly, truly excellent piece of writing.

At the risk of looking like a twat....I have to say it is a bloody priviledge to get to share ideas and debate with some incredibly articulate, intelligent and thoughtful posters.

Thank you Flowers

You guys give me faith for the future.

Right that's enough of that.....

As you were....

PencilsInSpace · 06/04/2018 13:38

Via the Sophie Walker thread, I just happened across a twitter account I assume is yours DonnaB - twitter.com/Donna_Beeeee.

What a surprise, I'm blocked, despite never having heard of you, let alone interacted on Twitter. Do you have many people blocked, Donna? Do you subscribe to any of the 'TERF' block lists that are doing the rounds?

Do you suppose this could have anything to do with the strange notions you have about MN, feminists, WPUK, the house of commons meeting etc. etc.? Do you suppose this could be why you have no clue what's been happening to lesbians, what's been happening in schools, girl guides, what's been happening to women who dare to speak up?

You've just accepted things transactivists have told you about us as the truth, haven't you? You could have checked for yourself if you didn't have us all blocked.

howlsmovingcastle84 · 06/04/2018 13:39

That's not the first time a thread from here that was designed to 're-educate Mumsneters' has been shared on Twitter 🙄

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:41

Talking about the "nice supportive bubble" they have on twitter and all the aggression they're getting here...

My eyes are rolling so far back in my head right now.

Ah well, I can't say I'm suprised, the poor fluffy lambs can't handle a grown up debate.

Also saddened that once again hundreds of brilliant posts are all going to be ignored in favour of pathetic whining about how mean and nasty we all are for not just shutting up.

"Aggressive" Pffffttt.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/04/2018 13:45

"That your reaction to some women saying no to you is to characterise them as invaders in their own fucking space here on Mumsnet, as far right, and as liars tells me everything I need to know about you. "

Pretty much sums it up Lang

ZERF · 06/04/2018 13:45

I'd recommend no more engagement on this thread.

If Donna wishes to read more of the informative links and opinions following on from where her posts stops, ball is in her court.

Other than that, leave them to their bubble and missing out on the truth and opportunities to engage in this debate along with the other trans women who have.

TheGoldenBough · 06/04/2018 13:46

Lang you won't want to hear that Donna doesn't "feel well after a morning being abused" then...

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:46

The thing is, the audience to this thread will run to thousands.

Every single time debate starts, the information gets more widely shared.

I wouldn't ask any person to take my word for anything.

Everyone is quite capable of doing their own research.

The more questions that are asked, the more answers are given. It's a very simple formula.

And all the points can be googled for independent verification.

So threads like this are incredibly useful. And generally have the opposite effect to the one intended.

Swipe left for the next trending thread