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[DonnaBe]

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

Self-ID "means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman...changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Go on, link to the proposal for England then. And don't try to present yourself as impartial, you clearly aren't.

I agree with you. That's not what we want. That man was clearly faking it and should not have been allowed into a woman's changing room. He was misusing the system.

Boom. There we have it.
This is what we want. This is what we are worried about.
Not you. Not someone getting on with their lives.

But as an infertile woman (don’t ever call me cis) please don’t think we have been on the same journey.
It would be like me joining a group about impotence and saying that I understand the problems involved with not achieving or maintaining an erection.

Donna has retreated to the comfort of trans world where questioning what you are told is not allowed.

Nice comforting world where everything is simple. Feminists = bad. Mn = bad. People who agree with me = good.

Ridiculous hyperbole, blatant lies, ignoring facts, hmmm.

@DonnaBe

By Debbie Hayton.

A transwoman.

Who attends WPUK meetings (or at least one that I know of!)

quillette.com/2018/03/30/plea-trans-activists-can-protect-trans-rights-without-denying-biology/

To be fair, she may be having a much needed lunch Red.

Donna

You know that male violence is a problem.

You may not realise quite how much of a problem is for women.

The #metoo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

Women, obviously, categorically know that not all men are risk.

But they don't know which ones.

If women are in any kind of a risky situation, they will be cautious of every unknown man.

Being in an enclosed space with your knickers round your ankles, your legs in stirrups, or taking your clothes off, automatically increases women's vulnerability to risk.

A man demanding to be present, is a massive red flag. It says everything you need to know, about that man.

Do you understand that?

Just because you have no intention of predating on women, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to how women will view you.

Wouldn't have no idea which men are a risk.

Indeed, it's so difficult to tell that, statistically, we will end up falling in love and marrying them.

But when they outright assert, upfront, that they don't care about our boundaries, what an earth do you think that says to women?

*women

If you do nothing else as a result of this thread then please read Debbie's article linked by ZERF

We have a common enemy....men.....and yet people like op would rather attack the best allies they could ever ask for.

I just don't get it.

Who attends WPUK meetings (or at least one that I know of!)

I think Debbie presented at one and attended the London one and spoke.

Thanks Eresh

You're never going to get support from natal females DonnaBe until you begin to understand that we also have rights and needs that are different to yours by the very nature of our biology. By shouting us down reduces the support that quite frankly you need. We can't be forced and gaslighted into thinking things that simply aren't true. However no doubt the majority of natal women would try to support you with what you need, if mutual respect and consideration for our needs and wishes was also there.

Fucking right sister @LangCleg

That your reaction to some women saying no to you is to characterise them as invaders in their own fucking space here on Mumsnet, as far right, and as liars tells me everything I need to know about you

That your reaction to some women saying no to you is to characterise them as invaders in their own fucking space here on Mumsnet, as far right, and as liars tells me everything I need to know about you.

It speaks volumes. The narcissism of it. The whole world does not revolve around you and your feelings and what you want. Women discuss this here because it's a female centred website largely. Not as a conspiracy against trans identified males and gender ideology. But obviously given how blatantly most transactivists disregard the rights, boundaries and feelings of women, that is going to be talked about on the feminist board.

*We have a common enemy....men.....and yet people like op would rather attack the best allies they could ever ask for.

I just don't get it*

Lana It's because we aren't the right sort of 'women'. They are better at womening than us because they don't/won't argue with and stand up to men.

I’m a long time lurker on these issues, but your post made me come out of my lurking corner. Mainly because your OP smacks of the assumption that we are all silly little women - concerned about boys wearing dresses, or beating us to the last limited edition lipgloss or something.

You said earlier that people don’t greet other women by asking how their womb is. Yet your own explanation of why you are the same as a biological woman is that people greet and address you as such?

As pointed out PPs, I object to the assumption that to “be a woman” is to wear dresses, high heels, lipstick and smell like flowers. A man wearing dresses and heels and makeup IS challenging gender stereotypes. However a man claiming he IS a woman by virtue of doing so, is clearly only reinforcing gender stereotyping.

No one (here anyway) wants to take away your right to present what you feel is “as a woman”. I’m sure everyone would also use your preferred pronouns IRL. What some women do have a problem with is the implication that you know what is it to be a biological woman, to experience what women experience, and worst of all (and your OP smacks of this) that if we don’t agree with you about this, it’s because we are silly little women who are being lied to and need to have it explained to us properly.

That isn’t to say trans people haven’t experienced their own very difficult issues. But you surely have to acknowledge that those are different.
@Cliques put it perfectly:
When I sought rape counselling I needed a woman. When I talk about being a woman, I am talking about my biology and the way I was raised. Being trans has its own issues, they are not my issues. We are equal but different.

And regarding the law - as a former legal academic, particularly focused on rights / equality legislation - IMO it is incredibly important to consider all the unintended consequences that a piece of legislation may have, and those that may arise through its practical application. To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am...

To be honest I never thought I would be on this side of such an argument over trans-rights. But here I am...

I think a lot of us are in that boat.

Ah yes..... all those women on here, all doing "woman" wrong.

Interesting choice of user name btw DonnaBe:

Urban dictionary: A Donnabe is man who wants to give the impression that he is the strong, silent type, who is also smart, meticulously well-groomed, mysterious, and irresistible to women.

By Debbie:

*Science and society may be the truth, but they leave trans people in a very vulnerable position. I would find it intolerable to live in society as men are expected to live. Thankfully, western society is compassionate and many jurisdictions allow us to change our legal sex, and undergo medical transition. But changing your legal sex is not the same as changing your wardrobe. When we change our legal sex from male to female we acquire rights and protections granted to women at the exclusion of men. Women are affected by this and they must be heard.

Critical thinking is not hate; it builds understanding and establishes foundations that are robust and can protect trans people without compromising the rights of women. Transwomen are not the same as women, and it is disingenuous to try and argue that they are. That being said, there is much that we share in our day-to-day lives, and we both face adversity and hardship, including oppression and prejudice. We must, therefore, abandon philosophies based on wishful thinking and return to concrete reality. Only then will we be able to work together with trust and confidence, combat discrimination and build a better society that works for us all.*

^basically what everyone on mn is saying afaik