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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
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8
dinosaurkisses · 05/04/2018 02:58

Realistically though, no clothes retailer, leisure centre, gym or girl guides branch is going to risk actually enforcing a policy where they ask to see that documentation before allowing a natal male access to single sex facilities.

Putting aside that I think it’s a bit shaky to be asking anyone to produce what’s essentially a medical cert to be able to use the female changing room on Topshop, there’s no way a business would risk the Twitter-storm that would inevitably follow an obviously male individual being asked to prove their trans status. I can see the Daily Mail Sad Faces from here.

thebewilderness · 05/04/2018 03:46

"It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

They left out the "intend to begin" living as a woman part.
I hardly think they will put men in prison for changing their minds. Do you?

IndominusRex · 05/04/2018 04:21

Ireland doesn't have the same model as proposed here. They have retained biological sex segregation in prisons and I think hospitals

BuggerBugger · 05/04/2018 07:01

I'm starting to become a little wary of the conversations with regards to Self ID. I think its reached a level of nastiness on both sides that is ridiculous. I think both sides are guilty of hyperbole and untruths.

A huge moment for me was yesterday watching the desperation on here to paint the YouTube shooter as trans. Four threads started and deleted?

I've just looked at HM Governments website. Under current legislation it says you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life under the alternative route. So surely nothing changes?

And surely Dinosaurkisses, under current legislation, no shop would want the Twitter storm for asking for a medical certificate?

I think ultimately I'm not entirely comfortable with the way the whole debate on both sides is being conducted.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 05/04/2018 07:16

Under current legislation it says you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life

But how is 'living as a woman' defined? At the moment, it has to be signed off by HCPs, that you have gender dysphoria, that you genuinely feel this way. If self-id comes in and it's just a declaration, then defining what that means is important.

Because I 'live as a woman' what with being one. Yet, my day to day life has nothing 'womanly' about it - I wear virtually identical clothes to DP, go to work in a similar job, we look after the kids etc. DP could sign that declaration, and if asked to justify himself, point to me, whilst his 6' hairy self wanders around in the ladies changing rooms and takes up space reserved for women.

Changing names/sex/title on documentation is a pain (ask anyone who changed their name when they got married), but it's something plenty of people do.

What punishments are there for not 'living as a woman' (however that is defined)? Is it really human to stop people from changing their mind? We agree to marry someone with something similar, yet divorce is allowed, and you don't get fined for moving out.

Grandmaswagsbag · 05/04/2018 07:25

There was a very informative poster a few weeks back on here who lived in Ireland. Yes they have adopted it, nothing appears to have changed. She said prisoners are still treated on a case by case basis and risk assisted as they would be here if we adopted it (I’m mean the point of prison is that your liberties are removed). I’m not sure if she ever mentioned hospitals.

Grandmaswagsbag · 05/04/2018 07:28

I'm starting to become a little wary of the conversations with regards to Self ID. I think its reached a level of nastiness on both sides that is ridiculous. I think both sides are guilty of hyperbole and untruths

Totally agreee, I’ve been at this position for a few months. It’s all very well hypothesising about all the things that could happen (mostly scaremongering) but don’t actually need to do that when we can just look to countries who have adopted it for guidance.

TERFragetteCity · 05/04/2018 07:29

You mean nothing is being reported...totally different from their being no issues.

Grandmaswagsbag · 05/04/2018 07:31

But terfragette how on earth do you know that there are issues if not reported, do you know people in Ireland who have encountered problems since the change? Or are you saying things do happen that there is no evidence for?

gussyfinknottle · 05/04/2018 07:32

I need to see a legal definition of "living as a woman ". It's a very woolly phrase and reads very subjectively. I do all the diy in our house, dh does the cooking. I rarely wear makeup and a dress. Am I living as a woman?
It's too serious to leave something so serious to a subjective interpretation.

AncientLights · 05/04/2018 07:32

Who can define what 'living as a women's means? Not me. I've just been reading the Twitter thread with the mother of the 11yo girl who was subjected to the sight of the 'girl with a penis' masturbating in front of her in the school showers. That individual, presumably a minor, will be living the rest of their life as female then? No, because they are too young to make the declaration, which is a meaningless document anyway as I understand in nearly all cases it will be illegal to ask to see it. The police accused the Girl of being transphobic btw. I understand the temptation to believe this is over-exaggerated as that wipes away fears & who wants to be in this position? It's all horrendous. How can we protect our daughters if the school, the police, the politicians ( one Stella Greasy in this case) all let them down? We are in a dystopian world and it's about to get worse. Unless we stop it.

picklemepopcorn · 05/04/2018 07:36

I think it's about a level of acceptance, which brings with it dangers.

At the moment we are moving toward a situation where men can hang out in women's spaces and be hard to challenge. Already, men are on AWS and receiving bursaries/on mentoring schemes intended for women.

It is also difficult to get support and Information for gender confused children which does not push them to transition. This is really serious safeguarding issue.

The people pushing for this move are not the people we think of as transsexuals. They are manipulating information, and making it impossible to do research which does not fit their agenda. They are men who aggressively promote themselves and their rights to whatever they fancy at every opportunity and play the victim card when challenged. I've been out on twitter lately, and honestly those people are beyond!

There is so much more to this than self ID.

TrojanWhore · 05/04/2018 07:41

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ShotsFired · 05/04/2018 07:42

@Sunflowersforever, as pp say, it's circular.

We you can't define what a woman is because the scientific definition has been refused. So if the starting point is that a woman is not a woman as we know woman, how can you define what "living as a woman" is? (and why is only that scientific description denied, when say, we all still agree on what a cat is, or a dandelion or aluminium?)

In this scenario, "living as a woman" only ever boils down to dresses and lipstick, which is then immediately refuted by evidence of biological females who don't live like that...so are they not women? If so, who is? And what are these people if not women?

It's like something Edward Lear would write.

gussyfinknottle · 05/04/2018 07:47

Trojanwhore, how exactly is calling someone a TERF a sign of tolerance?. Again, one person's "TERF" is another person"s "asking difficult questions ".
Mumsnet posters are perfectly able to discuss all aspects of this. As evidenced by this thread, if evidence were needed.

morningrunner · 05/04/2018 07:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

picklemepopcorn · 05/04/2018 07:48

This is helpful.

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=<iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/egN-9-7kTEw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen>

LittleLebowski · 05/04/2018 07:48

If anyone can access sex-segregated spaces, be on all women's panels/shortlists, be counted in figures determining pay gap, crime, provision of services for women etc just by "living as a woman" then there is effectively no point in having those things.
They are there for a reason. Women are discriminated against and suffer disproportionately because of their sex, not because they "live as a woman", otherwise they could just self-ID out of it all, couldn't they?
And Trojanwhore you speak as if all trans people also favour self-ID. This is not the case. What about their voices in this?

Speedy85 · 05/04/2018 07:50

Prepare to get peak transed again:

This is a man in Denmark who has legally changed his sex to female, and goes into women's changing rooms.

picklemepopcorn · 05/04/2018 07:51

I have to say, some of the gender critical comments are vile and unhelpful. Not transphobic, just rude and aggressive. It really doesn't help, giving TRAs plenty of material to show how 'gender critical people hate transwomen and want to eradicate them'.

TERFragetteCity · 05/04/2018 07:52

But terfragette how on earth do you know that there are issues if not reported, do you know people in Ireland who have encountered problems since the change? Or are you saying things do happen that there is no evidence for?

Nobody is allowed to report anything because it would be deemed transphobic to report on anything. Which is the point.

TERFragetteCity · 05/04/2018 07:55

Unfortunately, MN is a not a place where that voice can be heard, though of course the TERFs deny this. I would urge people who really want to look at the issue to ensure they source information from places other than MN

Seriously - give it a rest.

Women are allowed to be concerned about women and girls without being abused for it. Question is, why are you not concerned?

Trans unpeak moment
picklemepopcorn · 05/04/2018 07:56

Speedy! That is an absolute classic of 'in what way is he a woman?'.

gussyfinknottle · 05/04/2018 07:57

Pickle, really very helpful. Thanks for posting. An impressive speaker.

Ellenripleysalienbaby · 05/04/2018 08:04

Oh my god, that Danish bloke! Shock Is he definitely serious or is he doing it to show the ridiculousness if the law? Is it a recent video?