Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

The GRA is only part of the issue.
The fuss surrounding the changes to the GRA is because all gatekeeping is being removed. You will no longer need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and it will be completely de-medicalised. Many people think to have a female birth certificate and therefore be granted access to "Womanhood" you should at least make some effort. It's not just a box to tick.

Self-ID is about more than that. Currently, today, organisations and businesses are choosing to not apply the exemptions in the Equality Act 2010 that allow them to retain same-sex spaces regardless of trans status so even trans people with a GRC can be lawfully excluded from certain situations, including patents choice of medical practitioner, swim changing rooms, shop loos, and shared sleeping accommodation.

These lawful exemptions are being eroded by trans activists who have brought it to the point where now actually any man who says "I am a woman" can access female spaces. This is happening now we see it in the Girl Guides Policy, Swim England policyou, Labour AWS policy, male access into female-only has happened many times. Awareness surrounding EA2010 lawful exemptions is needed to move away from self-ID culture that puts women and children at risk.

Self-ID centred policies are conscious deliberate choices made by organisations. They can just as easily be persuaded to choose same-sex policies.

What’s different about the reforms in Canada? Why are their’s not going well when apparently Ireland and other countries haven’t seen much difference?

I have had moments when I think maybe I am just getting old! but then I try and think through how someone can self define their sex and it makes such little sense that I just cannot agree with it.

The only way I think it can be accepted is if you play along with the manipulation - these poor people, it's so sad, let them have what they want etc.
In my mind that is classic abuser behaviour and should not be accepted. It should not be a basis for changing law.

Self id and the stealth change to equalities are enormous changes that effect every person. The debate is framed as solely about trans people and presented as if other people should stay quiet and simply accept. That is wrong.

Ultimately I have yet to hear a coherent argument in favour of trans rights. It is dangerous to change laws and structures of society based on something that makes no sense. tbh I am now of the view that the first GRA should never have happened.

Has anyone watched Derren Brown's 'the push'?

I think it's on Netflix.
Watch it.

It will horrify you.

Small acts of compliance.

Exactly. Travis Albanza does not appear to be attracted to women, and I am not particularly concerned that he'll try to rape anyone in the changing rooms at Top Shop. He still has no business being there, and his presence is an unwelcome imposition that women and girls should not have to accept.

@BarrackerBarmer The Push - oh god, yes. It is horrifying but it is very very effective at explaining how social coercion works.

What’s different about the reforms in Canada? Why are their’s not going well when apparently Ireland and other countries haven’t seen much difference?

To hazard a guess, it's not going to help that the other countries are both religious and much more misogynistic/traditional (massive generalization, but, not completely untrue) - so either the women will be 'protected' by social measures, or they won't be believed anyway.

That too. This societal and legal change is training girls to accept breaches of their boundaries and not complain because if they do it will be them who'll get in trouble. That has all kinds of implications even if not a single trans-identifying person ever commits a crime.

in favour of trans rights

Trans rights to do what ever they want - because they already have the same rights as you or me, to use their own sex's facilities.

I would still like to see a sensible list of the rights trans people think they are denied (not that ridiculous trans health one) - because I think they have all the same rights as me.

I would ask posters not to 'hazard a guess' as to why self ID hasn't been an issue in Ireland in order to paint the country as a backward bastion of misogyny and conservatism. That's not the country I recognise (and live in) and is based on very outdated notions about us.

Ireland has issues yes, particularly around abortion rights, but a referendum is taking place on that issue next month. Aside from that issue other historical events are well aired and there is a general sense of horror around them (magdalen laundries, Catholic Church and abuse cases etc).

Let's not forget Ireland was the first country in the world to bring in SSM by popular vote. In truth self ID isn't an issue here not for the reasons hazarded above but because the transgender population is very small and there are no well known TRAs appearing frequently in the media on the issue. The general level of awareness on the matter amongst the population is very low.

Men can never become women.

Ever.

The End.

I'm in favour of human rights. Transpeople are human, they deserve dignity and respect and common decency, as we all do. No trans person should face discrimination for being trans, they shouldn't face abuse or violence for simply being them.

Neither should women.
Or men.
Or black people.
Or Asian people.
Or Muslims.
Or Christians.

They do not, however, have the right to redefine the word woman, just as I don't have the right to redefine the word man. They don't have the right to tell me to stop talking about my body. They don't have the right to not be offended*.

*Except in Canada.

Grandmaswagsbag

Ireland have different rules. Self ID is, indeed, a form filling exercise there. But in terms of transitioning in prisons and all women shortlists, they are still separated by sex.

We have had quite a few Irish feminists on here saying it's completely different there. They don't have the level of trans-activism that we have.

And only a few hundred people have a GRC. The trans community there is very small. And not politically motivated.

They also said that the culture is different. Gender roles are viewed differently. And that if a man insisted on accessing women's spaces (in the way TRAs do here), it wouldn't be accepted, culturally. They would get very short shrift.

This isn't necessarily about what will happen, or what can happen. It's about taking away your right to choose.

At the moment, given the number of men identifying as women, the numbers generally are small.

It can feel as though this is happening elsewhere, online, or just in the odd place.

But you have to remember that, at the same time that your choices are being removed, school children everywhere are being taught that transgenderism is not only quite common, it's aspirational.

Trans pressure groups saying changing gender can be fun. LGBT representatives telling children that puberty is optional. Coming out parties involving cakes and celebration. Adult men identifying as women being feted and invited onto chat shows.

Trans pressure groups show children a spectrum of people with a pink princess at one end and a rufty rufty GI Joe at the other. And ask children to identify where they are.

So if a boy picks a princess he might be trans. Or the girl picks the GI Joe, she might be a boy.

It's ridiculous to suggest to any child that preferences for colours and clothes have any impact, whatsoever, on whether they are the wrong sex. It's not a diagnosis of gender dysphoria!

Confusing a generation of children about sex, whilst at exactly the same time removing your right to sex segregation?

We have pull this back. We have to make sure that children are being taught that you can't change sex. That your preferences are not determined by your sex.

And that girls' boundaries are theirs and theirs alone. That they decide. That consent is theirs.

In New York they have the right to sue you for misgendering them if you're a public employee! For quite a chunk of change iirc.

People really need to interrogate exactly why they automatically put the feelings of demanding entitled males before the boundaries, feelings, privacy and dignity of teenage girls wanting privacy, rape survivors traumatised by male violence and elderly women needing intimate care.

Meanwhile if you want to call a woman any of the usual assortment of sexist slurs in New York? On you go, mate, no problem.

If anyone can access sex-segregated spaces, be on all women's panels/shortlists, be counted in figures determining pay gap, crime, provision of services for women etc just by "living as a woman" then there is effectively no point in having those things.
They are there for a reason. Women are discriminated against and suffer disproportionately because of their sex, not because they "live as a woman", otherwise they could just self-ID out of it all, couldn't they?

This is the point for me. If women were not disadvantaged by biology or socialisation then we would not need sex segregated spaces.

While the disadvantages exist we need sex segregated areas. When women are equally represented in politics we won't need AWS. When there is no pay gap it won't matter what sex people who do different jobs are.

While there is disadvantage we need to be able to define and name the problem in order to overcome it. If everyone was treated equally it really wouldn't matter in most of life what sex someone is (or identifies as).

I need to see a legal definition of "living as a woman ".

There is no legal definition of living as a woman. That is because this area seems to be the only one where we are stupid enough to legislate for concepts that have no definition - same with "gender identity", which is also never defined.

The only way to live as a woman is to walk about the planet being an adult human female.

The law gets around this immutable biological fact by simply describing what will prove this concept of "living as a woman" it has failed to define. Here it is:

Proof you’ve lived in your acquired gender

This proof must cover the required time that you’ve lived in your acquired gender. It should include original copies of your:

passport
driving licence
payslips or benefit documents
utility bills or other documents of an official nature

All documents should be in your acquired name and gender. The earliest document must be dated before the beginning of the required time.

As you can see, it's just a paperwork exercise. You tell various authorities and institutions you have a new name and - hey presto! - you are "living as a woman".

It's meaningless. Not just in society but also in the actual law of the land.

Canada is geographically a massive country, and generally considered progressive. Self-Id there has already led to women being raped in a women's shelter by a man calling himself "Jessica" who already had a history of violent crime. But hey, he said he was a woman so the shelter weren't allowed to turn him away.

Anyone who thinks that definitely won't happen in the UK must be one of life's optimists.

When I was a kid I would have hated pink princesses. That's not me. I probably would have picked GI Joe or action man or whatever.
Would I be considered transgender on that basis? So flimsy.

This societal and legal change is training girls to accept breaches of their boundaries and not complain because if they do it will be them who'll get in trouble.

Imagine the mixed messages teen girls are getting in school. Consent matters! Your boundaries matter! A girlpenis in your changing room? Shut the fuck up, you bigot!

It's a disgrace.

Consent matters, unless the person violating your boundaries has more oppression points than you, in which case why are you being so mean?

Travis Albanza does not appear to be attracted to women

The only person Travis is attracted to is himself!

Think how must money he must save on dates! No need to buy anyone dinner/a drink, all he needs is a mirror.

This isn't necessarily about what will happen, or what can happen. It's about taking away your right to choose.

Yes, this is it really.

I'm not all that bothered about what has or hasn't happened in other countries. I don't want to live in a country where the word 'woman' is totally meaningless and sex segregated spaces are effectively abolished.