Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
gussyfinknottle · 05/04/2018 08:05

Pickle, I meant the YouTube vlog you linked to. I wasn't being sarky about your analysis of that bloke legally changing gender to access women.

MargeH · 05/04/2018 08:08

Speedy85

Interesting clip of the Dane at the swimming pool

"If I am a woman, I am a woman....otherwise there is something wrong with the law"

Sums it up really. He has no empathy with other women, has he?

Grandmaswagsbag · 05/04/2018 08:12

Nobody is allowed to report anything because it would be deemed transphobic to report on anything. Which is the point.

Really? Many daily papers here are racist, homophobic, misogynist hate rags. Do you really thing they hold off reporting anything trans related so as not to cause offence? You can say anything is happening but it’s not being reported, but unless you have first hand experience or accounts from other people you know it all sounds a bit...conspiracy theorist. I’m not saying I completely refute your claim, I’d just like to know where the evidence for ‘stuff is going wrong’ comes from.

Speedy85 · 05/04/2018 08:13

Oh my god, that Danish bloke! shock Is he definitely serious or is he doing it to show the ridiculousness if the law? Is it a recent video?

The video was uploaded at the start of last year. It's difficult to find out much information because I don't speak Danish. The Danes changed their laws in 2014.

There is this thread on Reddit about him from a few years ago where someone refers to an article in Danish where he is suing a gym for asking him to use the private disabled changing rooms instead of the ladies. I don't know whether he succeeded.
www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/35dm73/meet_ibipippi_the_lesbian_trapped_in_the_body_of/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

Personally, I suspect he's a bit of a troll and doing it to push the limits, but regardless of his motivations it seems that he still is being let into ladies' changing rooms often. I would not be happy if he turned up whilst I was changing. This is what happens when you have weak systems in place.

ChiefClerkDrumknott · 05/04/2018 08:16

The question to ask is how, exactly, does one live as a woman? I go about my day to day life as a woman, what with the vagina and all, however apart from that I have no idea how to live as a woman. I do have a feminine name which I could easily change to a masculine one. I could even do that and carry on being called by my feminine name and call it a nickname if I wanted.

Apart from being perceived by others to be female, how do you define living as a woman? If being perceived to be female is what’s needed, that’s very dangerous territory. But I don’t think you’ll even need to be perceived as female under self ID and I don’t know which option is worse.

So how, legally, will ‘living as a woman’ be outlined? If it involves a feminine name, dresses, long hair etc., plenty of females won’t fall in to that category

AngryAttackKittens · 05/04/2018 08:19

Danish guy reads as trolling in an attempt to point out the stupidity of the laws to me.

I know lots of people want this not to be a problem, so it's tempting to go "oh well Ireland hasn't completely gone to shit so it will be fine", but a. different culture, b. smaller population, c. self-ID implemented with exceptions that will be removed here if TRAs get their way, and d. since media guidelines are now to report crime committed by TIMs as crime committed by women how do you track what's actually happening? Some papers get around it by using photos to show what they're not supposed to say, but that's not a very reliable solution and does nothing to help with statistics that will be recording crimes committed by TIMs as being committed by women.

picklemepopcorn · 05/04/2018 08:20

Gussy! Grin

I amend my earlier comment- there is so much more to this than self ID, BUT allowing self ID says something about the status of 'woman'. If the category 'woman' has no concrete reality, then how do we protect people who are highly vulnerable to being abused by men? How do we level the playing field, how do we target medical support?

Is 'woman' such a trivial, unimportant category that it has no definition anymore? Are women being defined out of existence?

gussyfinknottle · 05/04/2018 08:23

I am concerned about myself and my daughter, primarily. Unless someone puts the brakes on self-ID, a vaguely interesting pissed-up late night discussion on "what are we really?", becomes law. To the detriment of women.

TimbuktuTimbuktu · 05/04/2018 08:24

He a performance artist so I think he is trying to point out the problems with the law

@AncientLights do you have a link to the twitter thread?

OohMavis · 05/04/2018 08:29

I'm more concerned with the redefinition of the word 'woman' than I am with the changes to how people get their GRC.

They're changing the definition of my sex to include men - it's already happened in Scotland. I don't consent to this. Women need sex-based protections in law. We're discriminated on the basis of our sex, not how we feel.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 05/04/2018 08:30

I also think the debate has become a bit unclear. I was unaware, before I did some digging, that the equalities act still allows exemptions to exclude transwomen from women's spaces and that the new GRA won't change that.
Now: these exemptions don't get used as often as they might and perhaps some greater clarity around them would be useful. But that seems a different debate to the one we're having.
I've been to a "We need to talk" meeting and discussed the issue at length on the internet but I've stopped short on taking any action. I've come to the conclusion that I'm only a moderate terf.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/04/2018 08:31

That's exactly why I've moved from a more willing to try to find a compromise position to feeling like the GRA needs to be scrapped entirely. Once you decide that legally some men can be women you've set a precedent that's troubling for all kinds of reasons and undercut every single law intended to protect women.

Datun · 05/04/2018 08:31

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying.^ "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family"

There are no legal consequences. Because it's also written that you can change your mind. 'Non-binary' is also included under the trans umbrella and is consistently pushed by trans activists as a legitimate trans status. (It isn't, at the moment in terms of law).

Which means you can be a woman one day and a man the next. See Philip 'Pip' Bunce, the highflying Credit Suisse executive, who does exactly that. And won a 'top 50 women in business' award. Before all this happened, he would simply have been called a cross dresser.

In Ireland, only 230 people have a gender recognition certificate. It's a negligible amount. If they have this certificate before they are imprisoned, they go to a female prison. They're not allowed to transition in prison and then be transferred. Unlike here. Transitioning in prison here is beneficial, whereas in Ireland it isn't.

Hence male born people like Karen Jones claiming the only reason they attempted to rape a woman is so they could go back to prison and get onto the treatment programme to transition.

The main problem here is that people are talking about two different things.

Self identification in order to get a gender recognition certificate. And gender reassignment being a protected characteristic under equality law.

The first will benefit people mainly in terms of prison and all women shortlists. Very few trans people have a gender recognition certificate (1%). You need a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. And many of them don't have that. That's part of the problem.

What's happening is that men who don't have gender dysphoria and don't have a certificate are exploiting the equality law.

The furore around self ID is only connected to that in terms of highlighting how it's being exploited.

Under equality law you simply have to say that you are trans. The way it is worded allows it to be that woolly.

It doesn't mean you get to female prisons (unless you are assessed on a case by case basis) and it doesn't mean you can go on all women shortlists. (Although the Labour Party have ignored this - hence the crowd funder to challenge them).

It does mean that you are protected under the equality act for other things.

When the equality act was written it was assumed that this protected characteristic of gender reassignment would only apply to genuine transsexuals who have gender dysphoria. But since it doesn't specify, it means that anyone can use it.

Hence people using it to play on female sports teams, enter female locker rooms, change Swim England guidelines, Girl Guide guide lines, school toilet segregation, etc, and claiming that the word woman is discriminatory.

This is an exploitation of the law. Not a following of the law.

The law (both EA and GRA) was designed to help people struggling with a diagnosable medical condition. That is, and this is crucial, incredibly rare.

It wasn't designed to help transvestites, autogynephiles, cross dressers, 'non binary' people or simply men who like to intimidate women, to target everything to do with women.

The drive to talk about self ID, does indeed muddy the waters, because self ID is only part of it.

Equality law is the part that is really doing the damage.

There are exemptions written into the equality law specifically to make sure that women can retain their spaces, should the need arise. They didn't expect the need arise like this, though. They weren't expecting this amount of people to claim they are trans.

So the exemptions quite vague and narrow. The wording is 'a proportionate means to a legitimate aim'.

I.E excluding a transwoman from the Marks & Spencer changing rooms must be proportionate means of action, to achieve a legitimate aim.

They were not expecting numpties like Travis Alabanza, who identifies as a 15-year-old girl on nights out, to insist he changed with the teenagers at top shop, despite the sales assistant saying but there are naked girls in there.

Topshop doesn't understand that they can legitimately exclude him. But they have to first cite the relevant part of the equality law, then be prepared to back it up, in court if necessary.

Much easier for them to change the changing rooms to unisex.

And that's how it happens. Is happening.

None of this has been tested in court. And the exemptions are simply not being used. Anywhere.

One of the driving parts of a A Woman's Place UK initiative is to beef up those exemptions and have them widely disseminated to retailers, organisations, schools, etc.

But, at the moment, it's a losing battle, while transactivists target everything to do with women. Hampstead women's pond, bra fitting services for teenage girls, lesbian restaurants, all women gatherings, midwife forums, girl guides, anything that has the word woman/girl in it.

This is why you will find women arguing the toss over every single part of the trans ideology means.

This is why they will patiently and relentlessly expose every single time the law is exploited.

The equality law was not written so that secondary schools get targeted by 50 or 60 different transactiivists to force them to allow a boy in the girls' toilets. Leaking the story to the newspapers and splashing it all over Twitter to pile on the pressure.

Transactivists know this, full well. They know they are exploiting a loophole. They don't want women to talk about it, because as soon as the general public understand there will be uproar.

Hence #nodebate and the relentless targeting of women who speak up.

Like me. Here. Now.

NoSquirrels · 05/04/2018 08:32

The issue with Self ID for me is that it changes the legal definition of ‘woman’ from someone with female biology to someone who declares they are a woman.

Currently, to obtain a GRC, a trans person needs to ‘live as’ their new gender for 2+ years and have 2 medical opinions to agree that they have gender dysphoria. It’s got red tape involved, and involves doctors and the trans people lobbying for self ID claim it needs less of both.

They don’t have to have surgery or hormones, but the likelihood is they will.

Once you obtain a GRC, you can change all your legal documents e.g birth certificate and must be treated legally as a woman under law.

If we take away the independent medical proofs and the 2+ year period, and it’s just a declaration in front of a lawyer that you ‘intend to’ then it becomes much easier for the law to be abused.

It’s not that trans people WILL abuse, or are more likely to abuse, or any of the stuff being thrown about. It’s that this is a legal process with checks and balances and if you want to alter the law, you need to consider all the unintended consequences that could arise from that.

So far, it doesn’t seem to have been consulted upon in a wide-ranging fashion. So I signed the petition because regardless of anything else, or the muddy waters around the issue, women should be consulted on the legal definition of ‘woman’.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

It’s not controversial to ask for all aspects of a change to the law to be explored.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/04/2018 08:33

The Scottish consultation included a question about if there should be a limit on the number of times a person can change gender. Even the people supporting this know that the "well of course I mean this to be a permanant change" part isn't going to reliably pan out that way.

BarrackerBarmer · 05/04/2018 08:34

We don't even convict rapists.
With overwhelming evidence.
We are accepting the word of intact male paedophiles that they are women even before a statutory declaration exists and reporting them in the media as such.

So there is not the remotest chance that anyone will ever, ever, ever USE a statutory declaration to challenge any man's claim. Ever.
We don't prosecute crimes where evidence exists.
How could we prosecute those that depend upon beliefs in a person's head?

The threads about the shooter are simply the culmination of people realising that what the media reports is not sex any more. That we will never be sure again of whether we are being told a lie. And also the rising panic felt by some who cannot tolerate the cognitive dissonance of ignoring the evidence of our own eyes.
In the end it doesn't matter the sex of the shooter. The job is done and the media can tell us black is white, up is down and those who object are the ones seen as unreasonable.

You can unpeak trans if you wish. I bet it's more comfortable pretending to believe a lie with the crowd.

I'm 46. I have never seen anything like this and never thought I would. A mass population of people prepared to allow an enormous, jaw dropping lie. Sitting around fine tuning the rules under which we will mandate this lie. Shall we say men become women if they xyz, or will abc do instead?

However this ends, I am panicked and horrified by the capacity of my fellow people to lie on such an absurd scale. I am scared that if people will go along with what they categorically know to be false, they can be manipulated to do anything.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

There are NO conditions under which I am prepared to lie, or accept a lie as if it were truth.

Not GRC.
Not self ID.
Not statutory declaration.
Not because they're my friend, or brother
Not because I feel sorry for one person and not the other.
Not ever.

Men can never become women.
Boys can never become girls.
Male can never be female.

Ever.
No matter what happens, I won't be a part of this lie.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/04/2018 08:35

Can't protect or legislate effectively around a group that you can't define. We need "women" to mean "female" for that reason alone.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 05/04/2018 08:37

we can just look to countries who have adopted it for guidance

But I can't help but notice that the countries that have done this, well, they're not bastions of women's rights - Ireland, Malta, Argentina, even Denmark has its problems (kvinfo.org/web-magazine/are-danish-women-most-abused-women-europe).

It seems to me that countries which already do things like ban abortion in any circumstance, may just dismiss women's concerns about other things too.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 05/04/2018 08:39

Oh and Canada - which has been having issues with self-id - exactly the ones predicted in fact.

OohMavis · 05/04/2018 08:39

I must have missed the news of how self-ID would actually work, by the way. Isn't it all just speculation at this point?

Just because Ireland have a certain process, doesn't mean we'll follow. We have different laws.

Earlier in the debate there was a general assumption that it would be a form to fill in and send off.

unlimiteddilutingjuice · 05/04/2018 08:40

Really good post Datun

OohMavis · 05/04/2018 08:41

And yes, Canada's reforms are nothing to aim for. It's not going well.

53rdWay · 05/04/2018 08:43

I think it’s unhelpful to make the self-ID conversation all about rape. Most trans people aren’t rapists, most men aren’t rapists, that wouldn’t change if self-ID comes in.

BUT, the reason it becomes all about rape is because that’s the only threat that gets treated as valid enough to discuss. As in: well if this wouldn’t significantly increase the number of rapes then you have nothing to worry about, you hysterical TERFs!

Self-ID - and perhaps even more importantly, how organisations are interpreting self-ID (including at present before this is law) - effectively means single-sex spaces don’t exist. Single-gender spaces do. And this is important to me even if I don’t get raped because:

  • comfort levels: we all know why some spaces are sex-segregated, many many many of us would be uncomfortable being in vulnerable situations (undressing, sleeping, in hospital) in mixed-sex environments. Saying “well the number of actual rapes probably won’t increase and anything else doesn’t matter so suck it up” is telling us to ignore our own stated boundaries, and worse that we’re bigots for even having those boundaries.
  • it affects women in other situations who are more vulnerable than me, like women in prison and women in refuge. All very well to say “that gets assessed on a case by case basis so nobody will be made to feel uncomfortable”, but we know for sure that women have felt uncomfortable and have complained about this. I care about this issue much more than I care about say toilets in my office.
  • it inscribes ‘gender identity’ as a more important thing than biological sex, which I dislike for a few reasons. First it means we can’t take measures to tackle the oppression we face on the fact of our biological sex (the AWS issue would fall under this as would broader issues like data gathering. But also as a formerly GNC girl, I am seriously worried about what we are telling our children if we say that they aren’t ‘really’ a boy/girl unless they feel comfortable with their bodies and their societal gender roles.

I appreciate that trans people are often in vulnerable positions too, and support all efforts to preserve their rights to stay safe, feel comfortable and talk about their own oppression as a group. Matters for them just like it matters for us. But the fact it matters for them doesn’t mean it stops mattering for us.

Datun · 05/04/2018 08:46

There are huge problems in other countries. In New York you can be fined $250,000 for misgendering someone.

I don't mean by accident. I mean deliberately. Which is a massive piece of social engineering.

The government have basically mandated that you lie.

And of course, this will be reflected in news reports, statistics, etc.

A male born person capable of producing sperm is now also a female born person capable of producing eggs. Sanctioned by the government and enforced by fining you if you disagree.

Everything rests on the definition of the word woman. The definition has been changed, wholesale, without consulting women.

It's nothing word. It means anything, anyone says it does.

Except it's men who are saying this. Not women.

NoSquirrels · 05/04/2018 08:47

It’s is indeed all speculation at this point.

That’s why it’s so important to be able to have a voice in the discussion.

I am OK with pronouns, people ‘passing’ in toilets of whichever sex/gender, tolerance, respect and even legal rights when all due process has been followed. I think the majority of people are.

I have found myself wondering if I’m ‘on the wrong side of history’. But then I think “what is a woman” and I’m drawn back to biology as the measurable fact, and then I hear politicians who will help form policy say “notions of biology are outdated” and I think no, no matter what I need to know that this is being debated fully & logically not just pushed through by lobbyists.