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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
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Buckingfrolicks · 05/04/2018 10:24

thank you all for a very interesting thread - I appreciate you taking the time and just want to say that lurkers like me are around, listening

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 10:25

Thank you all for the many informed, thoughtful and intelligent replies.

What we definitely me need is more informed debate, voices heard and consultations before any legislation is put in place.

One of my irritations is the use of cis. I'm not cis, I'm a woman. My daughter is a woman. It's biology.

But I also recognise that there is a conflict for some men in who they want to be. Doesn't mean 51% of the population have to redefine who they are.

There needs to be so much more work done on all of this.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 05/04/2018 10:25

He hasn't, but I think the wording he uses implies that he is.

53rdWay · 05/04/2018 10:33

But I also recognise that there is a conflict for some men in who they want to be.

yes. And I think it’s easy for some to dismiss the gender-critical position as “you don’t give any legitimacy to these people’s genuine feelings, you’re saying they’re lying.”

It’s not for me to say who’s lying or not but I do agree some people have a very deep, very genuine feeling that they in some sense are mentally/psychologically the other sex. (I think the reason they feel this is because of our hyper-gendered society but this is a bit beside the point.)

But it’s more like, say, Jehova’s Witnesses: I respect that they genuinely hold their beliefs and that they have a right to do so and to not be persecuted for it. But this does not mean we inscribe the principles of JW belief into law as objective truth and insist that’s the way to respect JW freedom of religion.

C8H10N4O2 · 05/04/2018 10:35

@Truscum I somehow though was not accused of being horrifically transphobic for saying this, but women were

Was this on a public site? Its entirely legitimate to look at how a criminal was socialised and their background. It happens endlessly after crimes happen if they have a big public profile.

If the shooter was socialised as a male that is a factor in the discussion. I'm not quite clear why that aspect has been zapped here as there is no pending court case to prejudice.

AngryAttackKittens · 05/04/2018 10:38

So what those men need to do is carve out an identity for themselves. Not steal ours.

I know it's the harder path, but it's the right one.

Datun · 05/04/2018 10:45

Thank you all for the many informed, thoughtful and intelligent replies.

You're questioning and challenging Sunflowersforever.

And that is the only way to go.

The changing of language, the meaning of the laws, exactly who is saying what and why, all of this should have great blasts of oxygen flowing through it.

The shutting down of discussion and the stifling of debate has, without doubt, been a deliberate tactic. Calling questions hate speech and likening it to inciting genocide, is risible. But, it's amazing how many people buy it.

But that's precisely because they are not allowed to hear what is being said.

That, to me, is the only thing that needs to happen. Open discussion. In public.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 05/04/2018 10:51

You can't claim to change your sex during marriage, and remain married.

No that's no longer true. It was part of the initial legislation but was changed when SSM was introduced.

Datun · 05/04/2018 11:05

The sticking point about marriage, at the moment is, I believe, that transitioning should be grounds for divorce.

In that if a man suddenly decides he's a woman it means that his wife is accepting she is in a lesbian relationship and therefore a same sex marriage.

If she's not happy with this, it should be grounds for divorce.

Transactivists don't want it to be.

Although they frame it as not wanting to have to get their spouse's permission to transition. When it's not really that. It's making their wife (generally) being forced to have a 'same sex' marriage.

Melamin · 05/04/2018 11:20

There was a right-wing blond US? journalist who legally became a man in an afternoon a few years ago to prove a point.

She was barred from coming to the UK recently. I am not sure if that is because she is a dangerous extremist or because trans activists want it. Having seen what goes on on twitter, the way things get shut down so quickly, the way meetings like the one at Millwall are shut down, and the continued backlash for moving it to the House of Commons, I now have little confidence in what is considered extremist - it seems to be in the eye of whoever shouts loudest at the right people.

I have looked at the Womens and Equalities report and followed the last bill that got cut off by the general election and watched people organising meetings trying to get heard. I always thought that the way this country worked was that legislation was looked at from all sides and they came up with something that was fair and workable and protected the interests of those who are disadvantaged. But I haven't seen any of that. It is bizarre that a womens and equalities committee refuse to listen to women and can be so sure that changing the law around the definition of women has no effect on women to the extent that they can be dismissed, even if they are trying to say that it might actually have some effects. This seems the way to make very bad law.

DontCisgenderMe · 05/04/2018 11:20

However this ends, I am panicked and horrified by the capacity of my fellow people to lie on such an absurd scale. I am scared that if people will go along with what they categorically know to be false, they can be manipulated to do anything.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

These are my feelings exactly, Barracker. As you said in another post, it’s just like watching a Derren Brown show. I find it jaw-droppingly terrifying to see just how easily people can be manipulated. It’s a mass brainwashing.

How has the free and easy gender-bending of the 70s and 80s, when men were men, clothes were fun and long hair and make up were for anyone, turned into this?

And, more worryingly, why?

RedToothBrush · 05/04/2018 11:30

The problem isn't just side effects of the proposed law. Its the lobbying that goes with it. Its that sensible conversations about this can not be had to negate some of the possible side effects.

The law in principle and the law in practice and how it is enforced are two very different things.

Ereshkigal · 05/04/2018 11:39

There was a right-wing blond US? journalist who legally became a man in an afternoon a few years ago to prove a point.

Lauren Southern. She's Canadian.

AreYouTerfEnough · 05/04/2018 11:43

However this ends, I am panicked and horrified by the capacity of my fellow people to lie on such an absurd scale. I am scared that if people will go along with what they categorically know to be false, they can be manipulated to do anything.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities

This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing. You can easily see how populations can become brainwashed. I feel as though we’re in the middle of some sinister social engineering exercise.

53rdWay · 05/04/2018 11:50

She was barred from coming to the UK recently. I am not sure if that is because she is a dangerous extremist or because trans activists want it.

Lauren Southern actually is a batshit extremist, so I’m fine with her being on the thankfully small list of people denied entry due to being not conducive to the public good.

It is worth remembering that the far right are against some of the things we’re against for a very different reason to us. Jordan Peterson is not a friend of feminism either.

CisPinkHoodie · 05/04/2018 11:53

Thank You Datun, for explaining this so meticulously Smile

ShotsFired · 05/04/2018 11:59

@Datun The changing of language, the meaning of the laws, exactly who is saying what and why, all of this should have great blasts of oxygen flowing through it.

Two quotes come to mind on this comment, and both of them support why we need the discussion:

The oxygen of publicity
Sunlight is the best disinfectant

Let's get all the issues laid out, get these gusts of oxygen through it and let the sun shine down and see what's good and bad.

smithsinarazz · 05/04/2018 12:00

Oh, interesting. I've been flip-flopping around all over the place in the past couple of weeks.
I got "radicalised" to one extreme the other week, adhering to views like: the determinant of womanhood is biological, rather than social; a man who says he's a woman is either being disingenuous or deluded; it all looks like a lot of people with XY chromosomes telling people "Shut up, woman"; Mermaids are a danger to kids.

Then some of my views were challenged. Not so much by people saying they were going to beat me up, which tended rather to confirm my third point above; but by questions such as: if declaring yourself to be transgender is whimsical or frivolous, how come trans people experience such distress, and how come some are willing to go under the knife for their beliefs? Are some commentators scaremongering/ over-reacting - that is, are their fears really well-founded? And, ok, so a man can't literally become a female, but it is reasonable, is it not, for the word "woman" to be socially determined in some contexts, legally in others? (so, if I were at a social gathering in which, for some reason, men and women were expected to line up boy/girl/boy/girl , it would be rude to position a trans woman as a man; if I went into a gynaecology clinic, I'd be surprised to see a trans woman there).

I was very struck by the Swedish study that someone posted yesterday, which seemed to show some neurological differences between the brains of trans people and those of others. If it's right (I don't know much about neurology) then:
a) a trans person isn't deluded, in the sense that a person believing himself to be Napoleon is deluded
b) but that doesn't mean to say that s/he is neurologically identical to a person of the opposite sex. Rather, s/he is very unhappy with being his/her own sex and wants to live/ dress/ be treated as if s/he were of the opposite sex.

So I end up believing:
a) trans people have a right to be treated as if they were the opposite sex (I'm really avoiding the word "gender" here) and a trans woman "is" a woman in the sense that she may be treated as a woman in social settings; if she has a GRC, she may be treated as a woman in many legal contexts, too
b) but that doesn't mean that she literally has become female. She "is not" a woman in the sense that she hasn't got female chromosomes or all aspects of female physiology, even post-op.
c) It's distinctly impolite, possibly bigoted, for a person to insist on telling a trans woman, out of context, that she isn't really a woman, but perfectly reasonable for feminism to discuss its scope.
d) there's no reason why the degree of a person's gender dysphoria might not be on a spectrum, but sex is not.
e) The line between belief and delusion is slippery, and social contagion is real. If society believes something in general, an individual is more likely to believe it in particular. So, a person who believes that her next-door neighbour is a witch may be sectioned today; four hundred years ago she could get the neighbour into a lot of trouble. So if society believes that people can literally be physically male and psychologically female, an individual is more likely to believe that applies to them.
f) If this means young people having unnecessary surgery or hormones to change healthy bodies, this is a problem.

ShotsFired · 05/04/2018 12:02

@Datun The sticking point about marriage, at the moment is, I believe, that transitioning should be grounds for divorce.

In that if a man suddenly decides he's a woman it means that his wife is accepting she is in a lesbian relationship and therefore a same sex marriage.

If she's not happy with this, it should be grounds for divorce.

Transactivists don't want it to be.

Forgive me if I am mis-remembering, but wasn't one of the questions on the Scottish consultation something like "Should transitioning be grounds for divorce?" (or similar). At the time I recall being somewhat Shock that that circumstance wouldn't be a flat-out given.

ShotsFired · 05/04/2018 12:06

@smithsinarazz bet you didn't know that your reasonably worded and considered thought process immediately makes you a raging transphobe (who should probably die in a fire terf scum)?

No? Well, merely questioning any part of the TRA narrative is enough to label you as such.

That's why we are crying out for the debate to include us.

flowersonthepiano · 05/04/2018 12:28

@smithsinarazz

It was me who posted the Swedish study. Your position coincides with my own except that that study defined trans as someone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as do all studies looking at brain differences in trans people and most trans people don't meet that criterion (only approx 1% do).

So what of the other 99% of people self-identifying as trans. Can we be sure that they really need protection under the law?

Also, it's fundamental that we still need to separate out gender identity and biological sex, remember that biological sex is important, and ensure that women's protections as a biological sex are not undermined by changes in legislation that redefine what a woman is.

flowersonthepiano · 05/04/2018 12:41

To clarify, the young transwoman on the video upthread explained really clearly why the current legislation seems to get the balance about right. It protects those with good evidence that they have gender dysphoria, which is clearly defined. Self-ID does away with that and opens up the cateogory trans to anyone who thinks that's what they are.

Plus, while I accept that a male with gender dysphoria is more comfortable with female pronouns and a female gender identity, and will use them as a courtesy. I know, and I think they should acccept, that they are not a woman in the same sense that I, and other XX biological women are.

AncientLights · 05/04/2018 12:50

Timbuktu I have been searching Twitter but not found it. I am new to Twitter & don't understand my way round it yet, ditto MN tbh. But it was also referenced in another thread here because Stella Greasy MP reframed it in gender-neutral terms to sanitise it.

AreYouTerfEnough · 05/04/2018 12:54

smiths unfortunately not all trans women are people who have distressing body dysphoria. A significant - and increasing - number have autogynaephilia which is a sexual fetish. Gaining access to spaces reserved for women is part of the fetish. These are the people who retain their penises. They tend to be the more aggressive trans rights activists and display the usual male entitlement.

LostArt · 05/04/2018 13:02

smithsinarazz, but you are relying on the definition of women to have two meanings - a biological one and one based on something else. I suspect that many adult human females wouldn't fit, or want to fit, into the non biological definition. You are assuming that the two definitions can work alongside each other with no conflict.

And what does it mean to be "treated as a woman in social settings"? Surely everyone should be treated with respect?

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