Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

This is the point for me. If women were not disadvantaged by biology or socialisation then we would not need sex segregated spaces.

Precisely.

Feminists have fought tooth and nail for years, and years to have the inherent power dynamic addressed.

From women's right to an education, to the vote, to maternity leave, equal pay, breastfeeding protocols, diversity quotas, rape myths exposed, etc.

All these things took decades to implement, against firerce resistance.

The first female public toilet was burnt down. By men.

All those laws can now be discarded by simply changing the definition of the group for whom they were designed.

All women shortlists? No problem. They are certainly all women (except they're all men).

We pride ourselves on the number of women we have on our board. Several of them have won woman of the year awards. (except they're all men).

When men are reported as women after committing sexual violent crime, you only have to read the below the line comments. Members of the public saying well this is what happens when you let feminism go too far. Women become violent.

We are on the cusp of allowing juries to be trained in rape myths.

At exactly the same time that women will not be able to call out a man in their space.

We're going from what was she wearing to why didn't she say something?

It's dismantling everything that feminism has achieved and is appallingly regressive.

Consent matters, unless the person violating your boundaries has more oppression points than you, in which case why are you being so mean?

Girls: always assert your boundaries. Consent matters. But don't shout at that creep arse in the toilets when he scares you. Cos in twenty years time, he might be trans-by-beret and famous, and slag you off in his memoirs.

I’d just like to point out that I also speculated on the YouTube shooters trans status yesterday. Because of the particular masculinity of the crime and method of suicide, and because of them self declaring as trans on a sm account that was rapidly shut down. It is important I fee that crime statistics are not skewed, and I don’t think it’s horrifically transphobic or bigoted to say:

‘Hang on, this isn’t impossible but none of it fits what we know about female crime, and you (the press) have lies to us before about this. Is it true?’

I somehow though was not accused of being horrifically transphobic for saying this, but women were. So it was ok and reasonable for me to say this, but not women. Think on that for a bit.

Lang
Perfect x

What a bizarre thread. What does the mechanism of self ID have to do with protecting women only spaces and services?

Most women here are asking for the 'third space' option, which trans activists reject out of hand.

My WTF about the shooter was actually more that a shooting spree committing Bahá'í sounds like a steak eating vegetarian.

Canada?

A man identifying as a woman in Vancouver was on a campaign to force a rape refuge to allow him to be a volunteer counsellor.

Oh well, you might think. There's always one, right?

Except, because of the laws there, it took TWELVE years for the courts to decide it was not allowable.

Practically bankrupting the refuge in the process.

Twelve years of, what must have been, hundreds of people not being able to say oh fuck off, you creep, and throwing the application in the bin.

A whole swathe of educated people holding conferences, meetings, taking notes, writing minutes, recommendations and reports. For over a decade.

This person couldn't have hated women more. But the courts were either unable, or unwilling, to employ any kind of common sense or advocate for women.

Because of the law.

Sorry I keep forgetting links

thetyee.ca/News/2007/02/03/Nixon/

The supporters of self-ID state that people must intend to live in their 'acquired gender' for the rest of their lives.

How does self-ID intend to deal with non-binary people?

How can you 'live in your acquired gender' if you don't have an acquired gender? If you are non-binary then you reject such notions surely? How can you expect to have legal recognition of something that doesn't exist?

What about gender-fluid people? "I intend to live however the hell I want and will be a woman for the purposes of criminal justice, health, some sports and all changing rooms but will be a man at the golf club and for the purposes of inheriting titles. Signed, Tiffany/Colin".

For me discussion of issues around self id is about safeguarding first and foremost.

The video the @picklemepopcorn has posted is by a transwoman pointing out that changes to the current GRC take away many of the medical safeguards for people who wish to transition. These are also safeguarding concerns for children and teens. Rose (I think?) points out that there's a level of protection in this being a defined medical condition.

This equally relates to safeguarding of children in schools in terms of both a child with gender identities is vulnerable to bullying. And of course single sex spaces are there to ensure safeguarding for those young people and children, especially girls.

There is also the issue around stereotypes and stereotyping - if following a proper model of medical diagnosis and support there are opportunities to help untangle what the driving issues are for a young individual with identity issues - as pointed out in the video.

Secondary to this, from my personal POV, I object to the term 'woman' being so fluid in words and theory. This matters for me as I am one and my life experiences are often due to this, particularly the challenging ones. But I can empathise with those women who have had terrible experiences at the hands of male violence (I know TW also have this) - again a primary safeguarding issue, I'm thinking of rape crisis centres, refuges and prisons. I do worry about tm in male prisons too.

Lastly for me, personally, I am shocked at the level of gaslighting and twisting of science and the stereotyping gaslighting that seems to go on around the debates, plus the silencing of debate and women. Which is history repeating its self all over again.

Don't even get me started on sport.

Also how does one acquire a gender if gender is innate and unchangeable? The whole legal framework is a mess.

My pet hate is introductions to videos or posts that begin “you’re going to be shocked by this!” or “you’ll need a stiff drink to watch this!”

I like to judge the content itself not be whipped up in advance.

Especially if the poster has misunderstood the content linked to as in Danish man. Who is an artist.

On the subject of taking an oath - well this has to be done by an executor when applying for a grant of probate. They agree to collect the money together, pay the taxes, and distribute in accordance with the Will, or rules of intestacy. Most people doing this take it very seriously. But there are some who do not understand what they are doing and have their own ideas about how this should be done.......then there are the ones who don't even do that and the outright fleecers. Once the money is gone, it is gone and it costs too much to put right. There is a lot of financial abuse of elders going on. I don't have a lot of faith in the idea.

On the shooter - it seems hypocritical to discuss, in such a sensationalist manner, a particular case, where the actual sex of the perpetrator is something that should not be discussed and we must go on the professed gender, in the context of women's crime statistics and studies, which are sex based (or were until this year).

If they redid the studies and statistics on the basis of anyone who thought they were female, the situation might be a lot less surprising.

Can you acquire one online? (spoilers - yes, comes with the anime avatar)

Or do you just stop by the lost and found and ask if they've had any handed in? Can you borrow one from the library to test out?

My pet hate is introductions to videos or posts that begin “you’re going to be shocked by this!” or “you’ll need a stiff drink to watch this!”

I like to judge the content itself not be whipped up in advance.

Especially if the poster has misunderstood the content linked to as in Danish man. Who is an artist.

ODFOD. I don't care if he's an artist. The point is that he is in women's changing rooms, and I don't want to be in there with him.

And isn't the GRC the intent to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life?

John Pilley was the first man to get a sex change operation on the NHS while in prison, and was moved to a women's prison after he got his operation and GRC.

He is now back in a man's prison. Apparently being a woman isn't all it is cracked up to be. Presumably he now has another GRC to reflect his newfound male status.

So if someone can go through a sex change operation and still decide that hmm, no, prefer to be a bloke then it seems more likely that someone who merely fills in a form might change their minds over time. Even if that belief is sincerely held in the first place.

How can children safeguard themselves if they are taught they have no right to consent to undress in front of the opposite sex?

What will a girl do when they do find a naked male in the women's changing room (with phone in hand). Instead of going to get help from staff, now all girls are being taught that the male will be from an oppressed group and that any complaints will be hate speech.

We know how to keep children safe - this is being actively undermined by trans lobby groups wanting their version of reality to be the accepted one.

He is an artist doing an artist’s job; holding the mirror up to society.

He is an artist doing an artist’s job; holding the mirror up to society.

So when you see a man watching you change at the gym, it's fine if he's doing it for 'artistic reasons'?

I said in my other post that I think he's being trollish and pushing the law to it's limits, but it's weak laws that let him do it. And further, if he can do it, so can any man, whether they are 'doing it for the sake of art' or sexual kicks.

I don't want these laws in place over here. The laws that we have in place aren't very robust, and self ID will weaken them further.

He may be making the point that the law is an ass, which may be all to the greater good, but meanwhile the women still have to put up with him being there. Since he is exploiting the law it shows what anyone else who wants to is also legally able to do.
I’ve listened while being told that transgender school pupils should be allowed to use the toilets of their chosen gender, and if anyone doesn’t like that they should use the disabled facilities. All in an atmosphere of so much virtue signalling you could almost taste it. The teenage girls can’t stand up against that.

I am still up there on the Peaktrans peak. Convo with my trans friend last night where she told me that my fears about the Girl Guides were just panic because a transgirl might be on hormone blockers and so 'unable to anything'. No acknowledgement of 1) they may not be on blockers 2) this is dodgy practice anyway 3) the parents of the girls would have no idea and so could not make an informed decision 4) the probable discomfort of the girls having to get dressed, deal with female bodily functions etc in front of the transgirl. And this is just one aspect of the issue alone.

Who cares if he's an artist!

That's worse.

A man who is evidently not trans still gets to access women and girls?

If he's doing it to highlight the law, where has he said that?

If he's doing it to highlight the law, where has he said that?

Well there's a bit in the video where he says something along the lines of 'I have legally changed my gender, so I should be able to access women's spaces, otherwise what is the point of the law which allows me to declare myself a woman?'.

But I agree, the main point is he's clearly not a woman but it's bloody difficult to say so under the new Danish self ID laws, and if you try to make him change separately he will sue you.

Just to clarify my views, I don't really care if he's a prankster a la ManFriday, the point is that these are stupid laws and a statutory declaration offers no protection to women and girls.

I have seen a lot of people say - "Things are fine in Ireland", but what I understand from my friends is that very few people were aware of what the changes actually meant. They were brought in hard on the heels of the Law changes to allow gay marriage, so most people just conflated the two. As one friend put it" I know a couple of gay men who may as well be women - men won't accept them, so I thought it was designed just to make life better for them".

As far as I understand it, Ireland will not allow the GRA changes to apply in:

Prisons
Religious institutions
Refuges
Single sex schools

Also, and actually a MASSIVE difference.
You can't claim to change your sex during marriage, and remain married .

Is that true?

If it is, that puts pay to people like Philip Bunce identifying as a women on Tuesdays, wandering into women's loos, and getting a "Woman in Business Award" . He could still dress as he wishes, but would remain a male transvestite. It will also stop married male "lesbians"(!!), and a large section of the casual straight voyeurs, as they can't hide behind " But I feel womanly, I am a women", which the Law here will allow.