Ulster Rugby trial -continued

[ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo]

New thread.

There's so much distress and shared experiences on this thread. So sorry to hear about your daughter Bumblefuddle and about you Zibbidoo.

It's dreadful to think these people, like disgraced politicians, can return as if nothing has happened after a bit of time has elapsed. I hope more is done than putting up a temporary public relations facade, but that would take an inspirational leader.

The father making the daughter wear the "I support Paddy Jackson" t-shirt reminds me of John S Gummer making his young daughter eat a hamburger at the time of the BSE transmission to show it was "safe". The "Let's use all the tools in the box including our children" desperation approach.

Ok, I’m happy to be educated here. How does one identify from a, for example Facebook comment, what class and religion a poster is?

It's Northern Ireland. It's pretty easy to identify religious affiliation from someone's name. Class would be less straightforward, but the name would offer some clues as would the grammar and vocabulary of the comment.

This is something. It's not a conviction, but it isn't nothing either. I hope the woman they had sex that doesn't meet the criminal standard of proof for rape with is pleased.

The "Let's use all the tools in the box including our children" desperation approach.

I feel like that but then I wonder if I'm a hypocrite. I brought my 5 year old son to an I Believe Her rally the day after the verdict. Quite a few people brought children to the one I was at and I'd say about 2/3s of them were little boys. I took him because I believe that it's so, so important for boys to grow up understanding the impact of this type of violence.

Obviously I didn't go into details with such a young child but I did talk to him about how he might have noticed I was angry that day. And it was because some men hurt a woman but they wouldn't go to jail because women aren't always believed as much as men are. I told him I was going to a rally the next day to send her the message that I believed her and he decided wanted to go and tell her that he believed her too. Which sounds good in that context but of course he was going to believe me and the version I told him and I hate the thought of using him.

LaurieMarlow So pure assumption, yes?

tringley you aren't using him you are educating him. You sound great.

So pure assumption, yes?

Decently accurate educated guessing.

I'm sensing you're not from NI yourself given that you wouldn't know that?

Yes, Tringley, the difference is that when that girl with the t-shirt is old enough to have an informed independent opinion, she may feel used, whereas your son will already have some foundations of understanding of how women and men are valued differently by society. Hopefully by the time he is older things will have changed significantly and this societal and usually unconscious bias will be part of school education.

No I am from Northern Ireland. I just like to think of myself as part of the solution instead of part of the problem. I’m so embarrassed there are people in our country who make such assumptions in this day and age. It’s a tenuous link at best. Tenuous.

So I’m curious... what religion and class am I based on my grammar?

I don't know why you're getting so worked up about this nottaken but in NI names often fairly easy to decode along religious lines.

I don't see what makes it embarrassing. Fir example, if I came across a Muhammad, I'd be fairly sure he wasn't Jewish.

Obviously it's not 100% accurate.

As I don't know your real name, I couldn't possibly comment on yours. It doesn't work with usernames. Obviously.

What makes you think I’m getting worked up? I’m putting forward an opinion quite strongly, but I’m not a fan of ‘worked up’. Especially on a feminist chat board.

Are women not allowed to feel passionately about topics and put forward their opinions without being accused of getting ‘worked up’?

If you don’t see the problem with making assumptions about people based on their name or their grammar... if you don’t see why that’s embarrassing... if you don’t see how that keeps us stuck in the past... I’ve got nothing to add, I’m afraid.

You might as well check to see how far apart the eyes are. It’s not obvious - it is a projection of your own prejudices.

But you also claim as would the grammar and vocabulary of the comment

I am not from NI but I agree with others that it was a gratuitous comment.

I’ve got nothing to add, I’m afraid.

So let's leave it there then.

I felt heartened when I saw women both north and south of the border protesting about the same problem with great passion. Ironically they may have done more than any politician to move us towards being a united Ireland. If / when that happens, it will be through positive action like this, not more tribal politics or terrorism.

Whoops - wasn't sure if it was "an united" or "a united" - showing my class!

@Bumblefuddle, been following this thread and just wanted to say that if your daughter ever wants to talk to someone about what happened, there is an ISVA service run by Victim Support NI - specially trained staff who solely work with victims of sexual violence, regardless of whether the crime has been reported. You can contact them at [email protected] and it’s completely confidential. Please don’t feel your family can’t access support. She’ll be believed. I’m so angry for her, and for all the other young women out there who’ve suffered at the hands of arrogant, power-crazed men. I can only hope that change will come before my daughters get to the age where they’re allowed out of my sight... to you

I'm also from Belfast & completely agree with Nottaken - disappointing the thread is being derailed in such a way.

I really wish ni would move on from all of this but in reality we are still very much entrenched in the past

Be the change you want to see.

BelfastConnection I felt heartened too and I think that’s why I’ve pursued this point which seems off to topic. Because it isn’t.

United we stand, divided we fall.
Divide and conquer.

I’m so upset that religion, race and class was brought into this thread. I’m worried that with one comment and a bit of encouragement for that comment that a whole demographic was ostracised.

Yes I’m sure there are some or even many angry white working class Protestant men commenting about this case. I’ve personally found it more striking that so many women were defending ‘the lads’ behaviour. I took a closer look at the male commenters, and I really couldn’t see a pattern, even if I really put myself into the mindset of someone incredibly bigoted.

This is bigger than religion but when you make it ‘us and them’ then you risk losing the support of them and ‘other’.

Really disheartening to see comments like ‘thread police’ and ‘worked up’ on a board like this.

Sashh I am disappointed in your post. You refer to surprise that Paddy is Protestant because you thought he was Irish...I have two issue with this statement:

1. By Irish, I assume you meant Catholic? Because my understanding is they are not one and the same. I have an Irish passport and I am not Irish...and this is pretty standard these days, so I think you need to be very careful with your phrasing.

1. That you are judging his looks and speech and determining his religion? This so unbelievably archaic and demeaning. You cannot see what religion someone is by looking at them, or by their name. Not only have times moved on where there are interfaith marriages etc, so a surname would be irrelevant, and many people like traditional Irish names, but also, when are people from NI going to realise that religion is a religion. You choose it. It isn't a race!

I know that NI has difficulty leaving religion out of things, this is why the country has struggled to move past its issues, but I had hoped for more for this thread. Religion has NOTHING to do with it, therefore it does not need to be discussed or commented on. Especially in the bizarre and backward way you have in your recent post.

Now can we please move on...

I felt very sad yesterday but so heartened to read the joint statement talking about review and education. It's bigger to me than what happens to SO and PJ, although that might matter more to the woman involved. I'm not naive, cultural change happens slowly but it's a step in the right direction.
The men have experienced consequences and my hope is that they change their behaviour.
I'd like a criminal justice system that works better for women but changing the culture is the bigger hurdle.
Yesterday felt like one brave young women and all who stood alongside her were heard. So I'm allowing myself a moment of feeling encouraged.

I meant I am Irish but I am not Catholic