Ulster Rugby trial -continued

[ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo]

New thread.

Ditto
Applause TheOnylLivingBoyinNewCross

@morningrunner that is another very good point. The casual lack of morals from these 4 men seems to be discounted at every turn.

Rugby is a gentleman's game. These men have proven themselves not to be gentlemen. I want my children to look up to successful sports players as role models. I'm not against them being employed, just not in this capacity.

I can't believe the evidence that was omitted, it was pretty damming imho.
Also the reporting of the withheld evidence from most media has been ridiculous, the Newsletter led with the bit about Naomi, I rarely agree with the Alliance leader but for once I do, although the comments under the facebook link are awful, most as suspected about her looks, and LOTS from other women.

Stop the planet, I want to get off.

While I may not agree with the politics of Naomi Long her response to the remark about "middle class girls" was absolutely spot on

The worldwide rugby forum on which I post has it's fair share of "it's just banter" and "boys will be boys" type posts but by and large it's scathing and revolted by the actions of the Ulster 4.

There is more disagreement when it comes to whether they should play again. Many feel that their behaviour off the pitch has no bearing on whether they should be picked. However an equally large (perhaps even larger) percentage feel that "bringing the game into disrepute" is an offence which will see the players not selected. There is precedent for this, particularly in Australia and NZ (a lot of the posters on the forum are southern hemisphere).

I don't work in a public facing role and even my employment contract has a gross misconduct clause for bringing the company into disrepute so surely role models like professional sports people have this as a standard clause?

As Ulster rugby hold themselves up as a family friendly club it their review does allow Jackson etc. to be selected again I think they will lose lots of supporters.

Oddly the Irish posters seem to see all of this along sectarian lines which I just can't understand but then I'm an English atheist so I guess I never will understand this.

My DP played for a (now) premiership club back in the old amateur days and he's as disgusted by this as I am. He says that they had "banter" and some girls were more forward than was probably sensible (naïve) but he can't remember an instance of anyone in his club who behaved anywhere near the likes Jackson, Olding et al.

My son plays rugby and there is fairly universal criticism of these men in his rugby team's club house too. Obviously it's a huge topic of conversation and they have a growing woman's team so plenty of women with an opinion at the bar!

I've been a season ticket holder for the club I support for over 20 years and been on club tours, followed the Lions etc... and NEVER seen this level of misogyny. It's absolutely foul that these men can treat this woman with such a lack of respect or basic humanity and dignity.

I'm interested in the idea of an "unlawful penetration" law being introduced. I can't help feeling that any form of justice would be better than none even if it's a lesser charge.

The evidence which was omitted has sickened me still further.

The Belfast Telegraph reporting of this is extraordinary. There is no description of the pornographic messages (or even mention that there was more than one), no pointing out that one message was of a "spit-roasting" and sent by Harrison, and was thus proof that the men had all discussed what happened the next day - which they all denied in court.

The BT stress is all on a tweet

There is no mention of the unwillingness of the character witnesses to come forward, no mention of the fact that the judge agreed that the jury were to be told that Rory Best had been instructed to attend (even though he actually hadn't), no mention that the judge said "all defence teams had a chance to review her closing remarks and that she had made charges based on their recommendations." (as an aside, what the fuck? Since when did judges have to ask defence council what they can say?)

It's truly bizarre what The Belfast Telegraph hasn't reported.

I do like Noeline Blackwell's take on all this though and I hope the IRFU listen.

For those having difficulty with access to the IT, her conclusion is:

Ms Blackwell said “there has to be more to it that a drunken night out”.

“What happened is that some of the most prominent rugby players in this country were seen and have acknowledged the most disrespectful and derogatory behaviour towards a young woman and other young women,” she said.

“There has to be a real examination of their disrespectful and derogatory behaviour in order to identify what they as role models, people who are held up as the best in the land, would think of women, as was shown in the WhatsApp texts, in a way that they themselves recognise were hurtful and harmful.

“It has to be looked at not just in the context of what they said that night, but whether that it is a way of operating within rugby, that rugby condones or allows to happen.”

Oddly the Irish posters seem to see all of this along sectarian lines

I think that’s probably just a case of “old habits die hard” some people are just always going to try and force a sectarian agenda. I don’t see one here.

I also share your honestly held belief onlylivingboy

as an aside, what the fuck? Since when did judges have to ask defence council what they can say?)

Exactly. As I said, this was the defences show. She was just their MC.

Yep, sectarianism is habitual in some. So these guys are perceived as rich Protestants. Therefore working class Catholics are more likely to criticise them, meaning some (not all) Protestants want to defend them (sort of on the principle that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

Some of the more, erm, assertive FB and twitter crap makes me wonder if the girl is Catholic, and therefore seen as somehow "lesser" by a proportion (and thankfully an ever-decreasing proportion) of the population

The sectarian issue in the north is a little like a race issue in other countries - so if this had been, say, rich white frat boys in the US vs a poor black girl similar lines might be drawn by some onlookers

You are probably right Zibbidoo. I also suspect they are trying to deflect from having to look at the issue critically by falling back on the well worn sectarian "banter"

Me too onlylivingboyinnewcross

It terrifies me that this could be the way rugby is going - overpaid, over-hyped, trumped up farty little shitheads with no sense, no morals and no regard for anyone or anything.

Rugby is not anything like as well paid as football - eventually even a top level professional will have to earn a living and any future employer is going to (hopefully) take one look at any of these men and decide that they aren't employable.

I also suspect they are trying to deflect from having to look at the issue critically by falling back on the well worn sectarian "banter" hmm

Yep. It’s far too convenient really.

www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/paddy-jackson-makes-bid-recover-14521826

Paddy seeking his £100k legal costs reimbursed.

What an absolute fucking arse. Who is giving him advice?

It's not as though he doesn't have the money (if he didn't he would have got legal aid).

Does he want to stay in the headlines?

I don’t know. Tbh (based on nothing other than what I’ve picked up during this case) I’m getting the feeling this is coming from him and his family. Just a massive sense of entitlement and aggressively needing to win everything.

He’s probably been whingeing about being out so much money throughout the trial.

My husband made a very interesting comment to me about the blood on the bedsheets. I believe that PJ said in court that he thought she had her period. My husband said that men of a misogynist outlook, and even many who aren't, are fairly repulsed by periods, so on that basis he was surprised that it wouldn't have been commented on in their derogatory messages. Unless of course he didn't really think she had her period.

God, what an arse.

Anyone know if there's any legal precedent for this? I've never heard of the CPS being made to pick up the defence bill.

Also there was a PR expert on Radio Ulster yesterday who suggested that the pair of them could go and volunteer with a domestic violence refuge or a women's charity to show that they are sorry

Although another guest quite rightly said that that suggestion was not in any way about helping victims of violence, it was about making themselves look better.

They wouldn't be able to help at a women's DV shelter. They don't let men in! For good reason.

yeah, because DV victims would feel so safe about that!!

What is wrong with people??

If he wanted to show he was sorry he could donate his £100k (which no doubt he will get) to rape crisis. He won’t. Of course.

So much for his "apology" then. What an entitled little shit he is continuing to show himself as. He needs to get some decent PR because surely even he should be able to see that being found not guilty is not the same as being proved innocent.

I hope that he's actually terrified that he won't be playing professional rugby ever again and is envisioning a future of unemployment and infamy.

I can't see that Ulster and the IRFU can be happy about this as it's just keeping the spotlight on this case, and Irish rugby, for even longer.

This can't be sectarian. Really no, it's not. It's simply about misogyny.

Gerry Adams attended to Ulster European Cup final with Ronnie Flannagan. Rugby is played as an all Ireland team at international level. Rugby crosses the divide.

I’m just imagining a scene with UR seeing this latest news and ringing him up. “FFS paddy you could at least try and make this easier for us to keep hold of you!”

Paddy’s behaviour since the trial seems to be case of “I don’t care, i’ll Fight Youse all” fists swinging all round him.