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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Ulster Rugby trial -continued

934 replies

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 04/04/2018 18:18

New thread.

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16
buckeejit · 12/04/2018 13:10

I haven't got any vibes of sectarianism from this case. Just pure misogyny.

Sailorjerrycherry · 12/04/2018 14:33

Don’t know if anyone has posted the Bank Of Ireland (sponsors) statement to the Irish Indo?

m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ulster-rugby/ulster-rugby-sponsors-highly-concerned-and-reviewing-partnership-following-belfast-rape-trial-36800070.html

Interesting.

treaclesoda · 12/04/2018 14:42

I was just coming on to mention the Bank of Ireland.

Money talks. This carefully worded statement will have more effect on Ulster Rugby than anything else so far.

It's an interesting development...

Annasgirl · 12/04/2018 14:54

Bank of Ireland is now run by a woman, the first woman to run a bank in Ireland. Let’s hope she reviews this sponsorship and decides to back away from this misogynistic time warp. I’ve just read the interview with Willie Joe McBride, a former Ireland player and head of Ulster Rubgy supporter’s club where he fully supported the boys and asked for them to be reinstated. WTF???? Does he have a wife??? Did he love his mother? How can anyone not be disguised by these men?

Twixes · 12/04/2018 15:34

I heard the interview when it was aired. I was effing and blinding at the radio. How RTE gave that man a platform I do not know! He sounded like something from the dark ages and was completely and utterly ignorant of the whole situation. Kept going on about how we do 'silly' things and referring to them as 'the guys' and aren't they great the way they went to court every day, how respectable they all are. I was full of rage!

He also said how sorry they are (PJ apology a week later??) and that they deserve to be brought back to play for Ulster. When Sean O'Rourke asked him did he know them personally he said no he didn't!!! ARGH

Where do you even begin with this shit?

treaclesoda · 12/04/2018 15:34

Willie John McBride does indeed have a daughter, although I expect she is probably middle aged and therefore he is able to separate her in his mind from young girls out causing trouble for decent lads Hmm

TheCraicDealer · 12/04/2018 15:57

My dad worked with him before I was born. IIRC his daughter did charity work in Africa and he had some "interesting" views on people of colour as a result. Thought he was a knob when I was told that anecdote when I was twelve, and I still think he's a knob now.

YogaDrone · 12/04/2018 16:04

Willie John McBride's interview doesn't surprise me. The only reason the man is given a voice in the media is because he was a Lions captain over 40 years ago and therefore the most successful player UR have even had. He's certainly not progressive, even in the 70's he was a dinosaur.

OnTheList · 12/04/2018 16:09

I cannot believe the evidence of the semen was discounted, and the airbrushing of blood..is that a first? I don't understand why that was done and I think paddys reaction to it makes me think that maybe some other poor girl had 'consensual' sex with him the night before, or earlier in the night and left bleeding and distressed.

gluteustothemaximus · 12/04/2018 16:16

I can't help feeling that any form of justice would be better than none even if it's a lesser charge.

I agree. Rape too hard to prove. What about ABH for the internal injuries she suffered?

sashh · 12/04/2018 16:45

Bank of Ireland also has lots of female employees and customers. I wonder how many communications there have been?

According to UR website Bank of Ireland use the stadium for corporate events, business and networking. I can't see how they can expect any woman to attend if they continue and the players are reinstated.

OnTheList · 12/04/2018 17:18

This has really upset me. I was already upset over her treatment, but finding out the judge discounted vital evidence has really set me off. Back to ranting at DH about it all now. I feel so sorry for the victim.

kikashi · 12/04/2018 17:24

I can't believe the airbrushed pictures of the sheets were shown to the jury as "evidence". Surely the real picture of the sheets should have been shown with the recent blood highlighted and the jury told to discount the old stains? They were shown a false representation of the sheets - which is really troubling 0 is this now standard in trials that evidence has been redacted/edited but it is not highlighted as such?

Annasgirl · 12/04/2018 17:44

Yes I was horrified when I read what evidence had not been shown to the jury. I must watch too much American TV - I didn’t know an accused person could get their lawyer to say they would never discuss a piece of evidence???? I mean, surely the police could have done DNA sampling on the blood? And why was the semen kept out of evidence? I had heard during the trial
that some crucial prosecution evidence was ruled inadmissible. So angry. I can see now why people resort to punishment beatings instead of reporting sex crimes to the police although I always thought I was above that kind of thing!!!

TheCraicDealer · 12/04/2018 17:50

We have UR season tickets through work and take clients a few times a year. The boss can usually rely on me to volunteer to go at least once a season- that won't be the case if they play either of them after this shit show, and I'll be honest about why.

Chaosandchocolate · 12/04/2018 19:23

Been pondering on this, was posted a bit back in the thread.

It’s a very delicate subject area. But looking at this case particularly, if there was a manslaughter equivalent for rape, I wonder if the accused would still have been acquitted?

Yes, it's impossible to know. I think having other possible outcomes would eventually create a slow movement towards confidence in finding accused men culpable at some level.

I’m addition, would a judgement of the manslaughter equivalent of rape made the victim feel like justice had in some part been done, or would it be an insult?

This is so difficult to comment on because its so current and real for that young woman. And yes, I can see how anything less than a rape conviction could feel insulting for any woman who has been a victim.

However, speaking personally, I have some relevant experience but with a lot of lapsed time and I think I could support a policy/law change that might reduced offending/reoffending, even if it did not feel like "justice".

There's a balancing act in what we look for from the justice system when a crime is committed...justice, a "sense" of justice for the victim, keeping the public safe, eg, custody, reducing offending/reoffending, rehabilitation.... ultimately fewer victims. Currently we fail on all of these.

Quimby · 12/04/2018 19:56

“Surely the real picture of the sheets should have been shown with the recent blood highlighted and the jury told to discount the old stains? ”

Surely the obligation is on the state to only present relevant evidence to the jury and not unrelated prejudicial material.
The alternative to airbrush in this situation, where the judge has agreed that evidence of extra unrelated stains are inadmissible, would have been to not let the pictures in at all as opposed to putting the unaltered pictures to the jury.
I do think it’s an an odd solve and possibly not a great one, but it was in an effort to allow the jury to see the pictures of the relevant blood which they otherwise would not have seen due to the way in which the state had photographed and gathered their evidence.

HRHPrincessMegan · 12/04/2018 21:06

I am not a criminal lawyer so debating the legal technicalities of the case is beyond me. And from what I have observed from this trial and experienced IRL there is no morality in the law: it seems too subjective a concept for the courts.

I am so grateful that the press in the ROI continues to report on it as it all but disappeared from the UK news. I am also encouraged by BOI reviewing its relationship with UR. If more corporates for follow suit, the chances are these scum bags will be pursuing their careers elsewhere.

Totallymyownperson · 12/04/2018 21:45

There's another case where evidence withheld from jury. Surprise surprise a not guilty verdict.
www.thesun.co.uk/news/6030834/otto-putland-ieuan-lloyd-rape-trial-whatsapp-sex/

AnitaLovesVictor · 12/04/2018 21:50

The rape case I was involved in (I wasn't the victim) also suppressed evidence.

The accused had written stuff down about his intent to rape the victim. It was inadmissible - as it "may unduly prejudice the jury". He had previous sexual convictions as well - not allowed to be spoken of, although I understand that's true of all criminal cases.

She did get him convicted, but she had an awful time in court at the hands of his barrister who spent almost 2 days telling her she'd made it all up, and she could surely have got away if she'd wanted to, and picking apart every piece of her police statement.

Totallymyownperson · 12/04/2018 22:00

Anita - I thought previous convictions could be heard now. This feels like going back to the 90s

AnitaLovesVictor · 12/04/2018 22:14

It may have done - I'm not sure.

This was a couple of years ago - but definitely not in the case I was witness for. We were told any witness mentioning the previous convictions would result in a mis-trial.

it did feel like the victim was in a medieval trial for witchcraft at times. The odds were so totally stacked against her.

AnitaLovesVictor · 12/04/2018 22:15

They also applied for, and were granted, permission to cross-examine her on her past sexual history. Which they did. At length.

ZibbidooZibbidooZibbidoo · 12/04/2018 22:19
Angry
OP posts:
Totallymyownperson · 12/04/2018 22:21

The law was supposed to have changed in 2003. And I guess using sexual history as evidence against complainants more common than government or legal profession will ever admit