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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

286 replies

rowdywoman1 · 03/04/2018 08:19

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

OP posts:
flowersonthepiano · 03/04/2018 20:07

I also believe that boys generally feel the same. This really shouldn't be a debating point
Quite. I have a primary aged son (9). I was listening to the interview on the radio with Lucy Masoud and Jane Fae about all women short lists a couple of weeks ago. He asked me what it was about. I tried to explain and came around to some boys feel like they should be girls and some girls feel like they should be boys and that some women say that's fine, but they can't really be the opposite.

I said I think I agree with the women.

I gave the example that one of the girls in his class might feel like she should be a boy (I used a random name of one of his class mates). That's fine isn't it, I said, we should all be whoever we feel like we are? He agreed. And if she wanted to wear the boys uniform? Fine, he agreed. What about getting changed with you and the other boys for swimming? The look of horror on his face was priceless!

Kids understand these things. They know where the boundaries are.

PencilsInSpace · 03/04/2018 20:16

Stillscreaming - I don't want to to have a third space but I'm happy to accept your demands for one.

Isn't it up to trans people to decide whether a third space is acceptable?

This is a personal question and you don't have to answer, but are you trans? The only reason I'm asking is that it would provide useful context for your posts and what your motivation might be.

You're putting a lot of time and energy into these threads considering that you're not bothered about self-ID and you're sure we are a fringe group destined to failure.

Original poster
rowdywoman1 · 03/04/2018 20:21

flowersonthepiano
That's a great conversation to have and it's what children need - nuanced discussions about difference and inclusion. Clear messages about accepting difference while respecting boundaries and absolute clarity about the right to consent.
It's very difficult work for teachers as classes of children come to these issues with many life experiences. What they don't need is adults who come in with their own propaganda about society and who impose their own values on children with no reference to the children's own beliefs and values. It is one of the hardest things to do in teaching - deal honestly and with integrity with issues of difference - especially when we have our own strong feelings. Transactivist organisations are doing great harm to school communities with their narrow validation approach that ignores rights and consent.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 03/04/2018 20:51

How many women (old fashioned cunty sort) are currently held in the male estate under these rules? I must admit I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 'none' and 'one or two'.

My understanding is that there are so few exceptionally dangerous female prisoners that neither Scotland nor Northern Ireland have facilities to house them in their female estates. So they are accommodated in special areas (sex segregated) of the male estate.

So yes, a few. But not for reasons palatable to the TRA lobby!

LangCleg · 03/04/2018 20:52

Clear messages about accepting difference while respecting boundaries and absolute clarity about the right to consent.

Exactly.

thebewilderness · 03/04/2018 21:01

I am recalcitrant by nature and refuse to lie for anyone.
The requirement in law that women must share men's delusional gender beliefs must be repudiated as vigorously as we have repudiated men's assertions throughout history that women are failed men, non-men, sub human animals.

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 03/04/2018 21:06

CircleSquare Only Stillscreaming can speak for lesbians...... apparently there are none out there with a different viewpoint to her, just straight rad fems appropriating their experiences for their own ends Hmm

OlennasWimple · 03/04/2018 21:09

This is a really clear and concise summary of women in prison in the UK

I searched for it to try to confirm my recollection of how women are managed in the prison estate, but the facts and figures in it are worth reading and pondering in and of themselves. One figure that really jumped out at me was the rate of attempted suicide of women in prison: at 46% it is more than double the rate of attempted suicide of men in prison, but very close to the number thrown around by TRAs in relation to trans kids.

Anyway, the prison estate for women is summarised as "Women are held in 12 prisons in England. There are no women’s prisons in Wales. There is currently one women’s prison in Scotland, with some women held in units within men’s prisons. In Northern Ireland women are held in a unit within a male Young Offenders Institution."

thebewilderness · 03/04/2018 21:13

Perhaps I misunderstood. I got the impression that stillscreaming is a male who identifies as a Lesbian.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 03/04/2018 21:23

ThatEscalatedQuickly You’re right.
Imagine actual lesbians or bi women speaking for themselves.

Ereshkigal · 03/04/2018 21:32

The requirement in law that women must share men's delusional gender beliefs must be repudiated as vigorously as we have repudiated men's assertions throughout history that women are failed men, non-men, sub human animals.

I absolutely agree.

spoonless · 03/04/2018 21:33

Any chance of you acknowledging that cross dressing fetishists exist?

Yes, I acknowledged that three hours ago with "Everything under the sun can be experienced as a paraphilia."

And believe me I've scrutinised all of this more thoroughly than most people.

So you are allowing truths based on self-declaration?

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 03/04/2018 22:09

I got the impression that stillscreaming is a male who identifies as a Lesbian.

I don't think so, although it would explain a lot.

Stillscreaming · 03/04/2018 22:21

I don't think so, although it would explain a lot.

Well you've read it on Mumsnet do it must be true. Now tell me, what does that explain?

PencilsInSpace · 03/04/2018 22:26

thebewilderness - Perhaps I misunderstood. I got the impression that stillscreaming is a male who identifies as a Lesbian.

Stillscreaming has never stated what sex she is. She has always presented her posts as if they come from a female, lesbian perspective. If she is male she has never directly indicated this and no-one has directly challenged her about what sex she is.

If stillscreaming is a male who identifies as a lesbian then a helluva lot of things about her posts fall into place. A helluva lot of us did misunderstand though in that case. No other man-who-thinks-he's-a-lesbian would have been given the amount of time and energy here that stillscreaming has enjoyed.

We're on the internet though and nobody knows who is who so what matters more is whether people post verifiable truth or baseless assertions.

TheDukesOfHazzard · 03/04/2018 22:29

The male thing would explain why you find the idea that teen girls/ young women would hide in the bogs to get away from creepy or persistent men so ridiculous as to tell the person who said it to go away and give some more thought to her examples, or whatever you said.

I have no idea what sex you are, but that was weird.

TheDukesOfHazzard · 03/04/2018 22:33

The post is here. Maybe some women would say this, but it stuck me as extremely odd. So it will explain it.

Not that it matters really. I mean who knows who anyone is. The posts speak for themselves.

"Stillscreaming

dealing with a heavy period
dealing with a daughter/friend with a heavy period
dealing with breastmilk leakage
to escape the attention of a man/men

Irish women do those things. We usually keep the door shut.

(To be honest, the 'escaping the attention of a man' one, doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan. I think you need to put a bit more thought into that one.)"

Stillscreaming · 03/04/2018 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

thebewilderness · 03/04/2018 22:35

On the internet no one knows if you are a potato, but women for the most part do have highly developed pattern recognition skills.

Stillscreaming · 03/04/2018 22:37

Stillscreaming has never stated what sex she is. She has always presented her posts as if they come from a female, lesbian perspective. If she is male she has never directly indicated this and no-one has directly challenged her about what sex she is.

Or, you could do a advanced search and see that my gender and, to some degree, my sexuality, has already been check and varified by another member.

And you people claim to be interested in debate?

Fuck me, you're a disingenuous lot.

thebewilderness · 03/04/2018 22:37

Sorry, cross posted with you ad hom.

Stillscreaming · 03/04/2018 22:38

On the internet no one knows if you are a potato, but women for the most part do have highly developed pattern recognition skills.

Really, do we get that from our biology? Do you have any facts to back that up or is it something else that's just popped into you're head and you're presenting as fact?

ThatEscalatedQuickly · 03/04/2018 22:39

Stillscreaming why do you refuse to acknowledge that there are lesbians who do have an issue with the cotton ceiling concept and it's not something dreamt up by straight rad fems?

You are no more entitled to speak for all women, lesbians, feminists or Irish people (or any combination of the above) than I am. Yet it appears that you do so frequently in order to dismiss the legitimate questions and concerns of others.

NoSquirrels · 03/04/2018 22:40

SS I don’t care what sex or gender you are.

But you do spend a lot of time in odd circular arguments where you cherry-pick the things you’ll respond to and misunderstand or obfuscate to derail. It’s weird, when you’re on our side about self ID being a Not Good Idea.