Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

I agree with NoSquirrels
People need to be made to argue this out in public - it's only when the delusional thinking is heard for what it is that people will realise the problem. When older men with fully intact penises and evident fetishes begin to argue in public as opposed to on twitter for their right to counsel raped women, share changing rooms with teenage girls, administer smear tests to women and all the rest of it - that's when the 'general public' will realise that the issues are not about being unkind and transphobia - they are about a woman's right to consent being obliterated.

"But TRAs won't accept a 'third space' because this doesn't validate their identity as women. The only solution they will be satisfied with is full access to women's spaces."

That's the point. If TIM reject any or all 'third space' options, it's highlights that it's a validation exercise rather than a safety one.

It does, and often they don't have the self awareness to realise that is what comes across.

Articles like this seem absolutely ludicrous if you live somewhere with self declaration and a strong feminist movement that's inclusive of trans folk. it's like reading an article about how gay marriage will mean people will be able to marry dogs.

I don't really like the idea of a third space, there is safety in numbers and it's always handy to have someone to hand you loo paper for the next stall, if there is none in your own, but I do accept that it would make some women feel better.

It is about feeling better, it's not about safety, there is no evidence that countries with self id have seen a rise in violence against women and no evidence that women are attacked by non trans men, pretending to be trans women, in public loos.

So with a heavy heart, I accept a third loo type, or a forth, if we've including accessible ones, which is an interesting side point, no one case about disabled women sharing loos with men, but I digress.

If exclusionists want a loo of their own, let them have one. My feminism has generally been about accepting all women, even the ones I'm a bit uncomfortable with, but I accept that there is a tiny subsection of women who don't want to share with the majority and I.

Let them go forth and build their own loo. The trans women will be with the rest of us, in the ladies.

No, sorry Screaming. You don't get to decide luv

@stillscreaming If you're referring to Ireland, it's a different culture and a different demographic from the UK. Ireland is a lot more rural and people are more spread out. Also, Ireland still honours sex-based segregation in jails and other very specific circumstances; the GRA review proposed by Maria Miller wouldn't.

An utter legend on Twitter has made a list of times where men have impersonated women to gain access to women's spaces: mobile.twitter.com/iforgetalready/status/980548632213516288

Stillscreaming you do not represent the majority. You're entirely out of touch with what most people think. But carry on goading, do.

Articles like this seem absolutely ludicrous if you live somewhere with self declaration and a strong feminist movement that's inclusive of trans folk. it's like reading an article about how gay marriage will mean people will be able to marry dogs.

Hmmm. I wonder why a Guardian writer wrote it and the Guardian saw fit to publish it?

My feminism has generally been about accepting all women, even the ones I'm a bit uncomfortable with

That's right and I agree, my feminism is also about all women and the class women doesn't include men no matter how they identify.

If you're referring to Ireland, it's a different culture and a different demographic from the UK. Ireland is a lot more rural and people are more spread out.

Can you explaine why you believe that would have any impact on anything?

Also, Ireland still honours sex-based segregation in jails and other very specific circumstances; the GRA review proposed by Maria Miller wouldn't.

Ireland is pretty similar to the UK in allocating prison places on a case by case basis. What evidence do you have that Maria Miller would change the current policy in relation to prisons?

Articles like this seem absolutely ludicrous if you live somewhere with self declaration and a strong feminist movement that's inclusive of trans folk.

Lots of feminists here are "inclusive of trans folk". I am. I'm just not happy to have the law redefined entirely to suit trans folk if it intersects poorly with women's existing rights.

it's like reading an article about how gay marriage will mean people will be able to marry dogs.

I have read this phrase once already today. I think it was on the crazy-cakes article about "radfem" being invented in 2004 and us all being rabid dogs...

I don't really like the idea of a third space, there is safety in numbers and it's always handy to have someone to hand you loo paper for the next stall, if there is none in your own, but I do accept that it would make some women feel better.

The 'third space' can be the majority space. I'd use it on lots of occasions I'm sure. I'd also like the option of the female-only one on some occasions.

It is about feeling better, it's not about safety, there is no evidence that countries with self id have seen a rise in violence against women and no evidence that women are attacked by non trans men, pretending to be trans women, in public loos.

It's not about the loos for a lot of people, so this is a reductive argument. In fact, as with a lot of the TRAs, when they realised it was a bit of a tipping point issue for the regular person on the street, I vow to "stop talking about transwomen in loos". I think the arguments are much more wide-ranging.

So with a heavy heart, I accept a third loo type, or a forth, if we've including accessible ones, which is an interesting side point, no one case about disabled women sharing loos with men, but I digress.

Eh? Disabled/accessible toilets are cubicles designed to be used by one person at a time.

If exclusionists want a loo of their own, let them have one. My feminism has generally been about accepting all women, even the ones I'm a bit uncomfortable with, but I accept that there is a tiny subsection of women who don't want to share with the majority and I.

Let them go forth and build their own loo. The trans women will be with the rest of us, in the ladies.

Why? Genuinely? Why would the trans women want to use the ladies female-only loos if a safe unisex environment was available to them?

I really don't mean this in a bad way (I love Ireland!) but Ireland in many ways is about 20 years behind the UK in terms of social acceptance of behaviours outside the norm. So my take on self-ID there is that it is predominantly transsexuals who will go through the process, because Ireland has not - yet - seen the rise in out and obvious AGPs that are currently dominating the narrative in the UK

Oh, I see StillScreaming is back, declaring that her consent is the only consent that matters and should count for all women. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

And that feminism intersects with penis. Newsflash: no, it doesn't.

Nice bit of sanctimonious emotional blackmail included, I see - because, of course, displaying our female socialisation is exactly what feminism should be about. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

Maybe someone who still subscribes to the Guardian could email Matthew D'Ancona and point him to this thread and that a third space would do nothing to meet TAs' demands for validation of their womanhood, bepenised or not, which is really what they want.

SS: The trans women will be with the rest of us, in the ladies.

Me: Why? Genuinely? Why would the trans women want to use the ladies female-only loos if a safe unisex environment was available to them?

Just to expand on this a bit. I'd want to use the female-only loos when:

dealing with a heavy period
dealing with a daughter/friend with a heavy period
dealing with breastmilk leakage
to escape the attention of a man/men

Of my reasons, I guess trans women could also claim "escaping unwanted male attention" as a reason. But if most men are decent, and don't harrass people unduly (as we're told we're hysterical for this being a reason for sex-segregated loos) and most trans women just want to go about their business unnoticed and have been doing it for ages without anyone realising (so stop being hysterical about penises, women), then in that situation I suspect most women would accept a trans woman who was genuinely afraid into the female loo.

I realise I'm not doing well on the whole "not talking about toilets" thing.

Why? Genuinely? Why would the trans women want to use the ladies female-only loos if a safe unisex environment was available to them?

Why wouldn't you?

know that there are some websites of the internet that get all excited about AGP, so I'm going to humour you and pretend it exists, flying in the face of most of the evidence. Why is that a problem?

What evidence would that be? AGP is basically cross dressing fetishism by another name. Are you suggesting that's not a thing?

Oh, I see StillScreaming is back, declaring that her consent is the only consent that matters and should count for all women. Newsflash: no, it shouldn't.

No, I'm looking at the numbers on the petition and I see, that, even with the help of Cambridge Analitical, you'd have a hard time getting it up to 100,000 signatures. I'm told that trans people make up 1% of the population and that 650,000 (ish) people.

Consent is important but a fringe group can't expect to dictate to the majority.

dealing with a heavy period
dealing with a daughter/friend with a heavy period
dealing with breastmilk leakage
to escape the attention of a man/men

Irish women do those things. We usually keep the door shut.

(To be honest, the 'escaping the attention of a man' one, doesn't strike me as a fantastic plan. I think you need to put a bit more thought into that one.)

Oh Stillscreaming, your response to me did make me laugh! And I needed that this morning, so thanks

I shall be chuckling about lesbians littering the political landscape all day

You can't judge how many people think something by how many people sign an online petition asking for the government to run a public consultation. People don't actually think men are women, Stillscreaming. Radical feminism may be a fringe, but people who don't believe in biological reality is too. Give it up.

Oh and it's Analytica, dear.

What evidence would that be? AGP is basically cross dressing fetishism by another name. Are you suggesting that's not a thing?

You can't prove that a significant number of trans people have AGP and I can't prove that none do. It's a rabbit hole of pointlessness even trying. Being trans isn't listed as a paraphernalia by the Royal College of Psychiatrists. I accept that they know more than I do but you think you know better.

You can't judge how many people think something by how many people sign an online petition asking for the government to run a public consultation. People don't actually think men are women, Stillscreaming. Radical feminism may be a fringe, but people who don't believe in biological reality is too. Give it up.

Hey, I thought what you wanted was debate? I thought you wanted an opportunity to talk? Why do you keep,trying to close me down?

There's nothing radical about exclusion and there's nothing feminist about shutting the majority of women down becasue they don't agree with you.