Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

I can't really parse this. Are you saying that you agree the cotton ceiling concept is homophobic, or that you have a bigger issue with those pushing back against it (primarily those affected by it i.e. lesbians) than you do with the concept itself?

She's saying radfems (none of whom are lesbians of course, sigh) only care about lesbians when they get to complain about the cotton ceiling. Therefore, radfems are homophobic.

It's more Through The Looking Glass bullcrap, of course.

I think she is saying that feminists who are gender critical (and who are rarely lesbians themselves hahahahahahahhahahahaha what?) mentioning lesbians and cotton ceiling as to support their arguments is homophobic as they are using lesbians for their own means.

So like when feminists get angry about people who only seem to care about CSA when it's a certain type of perp, really they are not interested in victims of CSA they are using them as an arugment to support their racism.

I think.

The idea that gender critical feminists are not usually lesbians is hahahahahahahaahahhahahahahhahahhaha awesome

Ha ha indeed. It was via an article or blog post written by a lesbian feminist that I first heard of the concept and there are many lesbian feminists on twitter and here with strong, and justified, objections to the concept.

I just hope that the people relying on some experts about autogynephilia are not the same people condemning other experts for saying that transwomen are women, at least not without a very good reason. And I don't think "BECAUSE OVARIES!!!!" is that reason.

Good for you.

What do you think is a good reason why men are women?

Who are you talking to, spoonless?

@rowdywoman1 I remember the girls at my secondary school all refused to use the open showers, preferring to smell all day instead. Many of us deliberately slacked during PE to minimise sweating, which of course meant we didn't get the maximum fitness benefit from the lessons.

I was sexually assaulted in mixed changing rooms at primary school and it was a major contributor to my insistence on attending an all-girl secondary school. Had a trans girl (i.e. a biologically-male child) attended my school and I been required to change with her to do PE, I would have refused to do PE and no amount of detention would have persuaded me otherwise. Being forced to strip to my underwear in front of a biological male, having carefully orchestrated my school choice to avoid male children completely, would have been unbearable.

It's complete news to me that we have self-ID in Ireland ??

I've never once encountered a transwoman in a female toilets or changing rooms.

Where are all these transwomen? I've never seen one.

@TheDukesOfHazzard I’m talking to the autogynephilia scaremongers. And if the women who feel threatened are sincere they must know how dehumanising the "I believe that you believe in your delusion, dear" treatment is. I would hope they would hesitate to inflict it on anyone else.

@Ereshkigal
What do you think is a good reason why men are women?
If I think transwomen are women and not men then I'm afraid the inescapable logic trap you have set for me rather collapses.

.

And I’m out, because my sedatives give me horrible anxiety hangovers so I try to avoid having to use them.

If I think transwomen are women and not men then I'm afraid the inescapable logic trap you have set for me rather collapses.

Not really. You might also believe the moon is made of green cheese for all we know.

It's complete news to me that we have self-ID in Ireland ?? I've never once encountered a transwoman in a female toilets or changing rooms. Where are all these transwomen? I've never seen one.

We have had since 2015, I doubt you are the only one who hasn't realised. In fact I'd say it's a significant majority!

You probably have met a transperson and just not realised. That said, the numbers identifying as transgender are very small so I suppose you might not have met someone as yet.

How many beardy, gender fluids have you bumped into in the loo?

Not really. You might also believe the moon is made of green cheese for all we know.

I’m talking purely as a logic formulation. It would be switching my "What do you think is a good reason why women are women?" to Ereshkigal's "What do you think is a good reason why men are women?" It's pretty clear we would be disagreeing over the definition of terms and we couldn't start formulating meaningful questions until that had been resolved. Which as I say I'm not able to stick around to do, so you won't get to start arfing at me.

bd67th
I am so sorry to hear about that. I know this is how teenagers feel - although I generally talk about girls (as it mainly seems to be boys demanding access to girl's changing rooms) I also believe that boys generally feel the same.
This really shouldn't be a debating point and I am always horrified at how casually children's reservations and feelings are so casually dismissed and turned into allegations of transphobia..

Think you're the arfer. Sea lion. Give one good reason why trans identified males are women, other than they say so.

Think you could do with interrogating that belief you have if you're so into reason and logic, spoonless. And yes, cross dressers are a thing. No scaremongering. So if you can't refute that to prop up your beliefs, you're right to avoid the argument.

1. Here is the link to the petition for anyone who hasn’t signed or shared petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

1. I don’t think the TRAs would ever accept a 3rd loo. It will be “the hill they die on” as the kids are so fond of saying these days.

1. StillScreaming, I know you’ll say “I never said I did” but you do not speak for all Irish women.

1. “Transwomen are not women” is not extremist. Unless you’d like the name of my higher education establishment whereby you can go and correct every person I trained with and all those who have graduated in the following 12 years, who I know for a fact were taught the same thing.

1. There was a poster who was heavily involved with posting during Brexit and the 2016 US election who was suspected of whilst not being a troll, perhaps being a bot/an account run by multiple people.

I just thought, if the 3rd space was for anyone who has an issue with sharing with men imagine how many TRAs would turn up photographing everyone who went and screaming “why aren’t you in with the women? TERF!”

Just extending the theme - there's a real issue about adults dominating and oppressing children in all this.
Adults with no knowledge of child psychology or child development charging into schools and trying to change system and protocols in their own interests. Misleading schools about Equality legislation and introducing (without any discussion with the pupils concerned) mixed sex changing, showering, toilets.
Why aren't transgender activist groups lobbying for 3rd spaces? Much of their school anti bullying materials are first rate. But they can't help pushing their personal preferences to have access to changing rooms etc. They are careless about the needs and safety of all children. They promote one group as the most vulnerable in the schools which is frankly offensive when I look at the levels of needs in many schools - poverty, disability, SEN, abused and neglected children etc.
In many schools providing 3rd spaces for toilets would be straightforward. Changing rooms and showers less so but it would be a start.

I can't really parse this. Are you saying that you agree the cotton ceiling concept is homophobic, or that you have a bigger issue with those pushing back against it (primarily those affected by it i.e. lesbians) than you do with the concept itself?

It reads to me a little like when she bollocked Brits for not helping Irish women.
But now non-Lesbians aren’t allowed to advocated for Lesbians?

Think you're the arfer. Sea lion.

Uh, yes, that was my point. And there it is on cue.

Just convince me you've scrutinised the concept of autogynephilia as intently as you've scrutinised the concept of transwomen. Till you do I'll shut up.

Any chance of you acknowledging that cross dressing fetishists exist?

And believe me I've scrutinised all of this more thoroughly than most people.

Gosh @Stillscreaming has been busy!

Ireland is pretty similar to the UK in allocating prison places on a case by case basis.

No, come on we've done this on two other threads already.

Some TRAs are making a huge deal out of the prison rules that say a female prisoner can be held in the male estate if she is exceptionally dangerous. Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

How many women (old fashioned cunty sort) are currently held in the male estate under these rules? I must admit I don't have the stats to hand but I'm willing to bet it's somewhere between 'none' and 'one or two'.

Maybe it's more, in which case any TW housed under these rules will still be in with women. Extremely dangerous women maybe, but still in all likelihood smaller and less strong than the extremely dangerous TW. Still likely to be vulnerable to pregnancy as well.

What evidence do you have that Maria Miller would change the current policy in relation to prisons?

None at all.

Prison service: We go by legal sex. Trans people without a GRC will be dealt with case by case but a TW with a GRC must be treated the same as any other legally female prisoner.

Maria Miller: We're going to give out GRCs to anyone who wants one.