Matthew d'Ancona in the Guardian - 3rd spaces as the solution

[rowdywoman1]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/01/transgender-equality-women-only-carriages-caledonian-sleeper

This seems to me to be a thoughtful and reasonable article. Apart from his irritating use of 'cis' he talks about the need "to build toilets that accommodate trans visitors without making cis women feel uncomfortable." and that in rape crisis centres, trans women seeking work will have to accept that their aspirations are trumped by the rights of the horribly violated. Sorry, but there it is"

It was good to read an article which genuinely tries to navigate a way forward and move the conversation on. And slightly unbelievable to see a second constructive article in the paper that has acquired such a reputation for dismissing women as transphobes and bigots. I wonder whether he'll get the same reaction that Hadley Freeman did?

Ach, I reported you SS. Never done it before personally but there’s always a first time.

Anyway, back to my original point which you side-stepped so cleverly with a personal insult:

I said I don’t care (or care to know) what sex or gender you are.

But that you obfuscate.

You said you have to defend yourself against personal attacks, that’s why you go in circles and respond as you do.

I said I hadn’t insulted you so that argument didn’t really work in response to my posts to you.

You said I’d watched people misgender you so I was an enabler.

But I neither know nor care what sex or gender you are. So I can’t very well call anyone out or defend you on something I know nothing about.

(This is where you tell me I know nothing about how trans people feel, so why am I getting involved in their business , and I tell you it’s women’s business I’m involved with and on and on..,)

If transsexual women decided, collectively, that they wanted a third space, that would be none of my business.

Jolly good.

I stay away from twitter but has he had the same reaction that Hadley got for daring to diversify from the roolz?

Am I not allowed to feel comfortable in hitherto single sex spaces? Am I not allowed to retain a shred of dignity when lying on an examination couch with my legs in stirrups and a HCP wielding a large speculum? Is my elderly granny not allowed to retain a bit of modesty when getting her incontinence pads changed by the visiting nurse?

Why is it good enough for us to accept "you probably won't get assaulted" as a rationale?

OleannasWimple
Regrettably, woman are being told that we now have no right to consent - the wishes of some people trump our rights and feelings.

I'm pretty hot on all kinds of bullying. I don't like to be a bystander, it makes one complicit.

The threads on Mumsnet are generally pretty fast moving and it's hard to keep up with every single post. Not calling out another poster doesn't mean one is complicit in what they have posted. If you really feel attacked then report the posts to Mumsnet who will address the situation for you.

You can always opt to ignore the posts you feel are attacking your gender etc and concentrate on the substance of the discussion. I, for one, would like to understand your views on the questions raised earlier in the thread, including mine at 22.39, but if you don't wish to engage that is of course your prerogative.

What research has been done?

Well, there was the one following Target in the US after it changed its toilets to gender neutral.

Sexual incidents increased across the entire timeframe, with 44 incidents in the four pre-policy trimesters (Jan ’15-Apr ’16), and 80 in the four post-policy trimesters (May ’16-Aug ’17).

Its also notable to me, SS, that you picked out the first part of my post to respond to, but not the secind half about logical arguments you’d failed to respond to...

If there is to be a third space, at the insistence of a small group of exclusionists, they should be the ones who get to use it.

This is kind of amusing. What you are proposing is that there be two unisex spaces divided by self-proclaimed 'gender identity', plus a third, female-only space for 'exclusionists'. You realise if that did come to pass, it wouldn't be just a small group of women opting to use the 'exclusionist' female-only space - it would be the vast majority of women and girls? And that men who claim to 'feel like' women would then disavow the unisex 'woman gender identity' space and demand entry into the 'exclusionist' female one?

You realise if that did come to pass, it wouldn't be just a small group of women opting to use the 'exclusionist' female-only space - it would be the vast majority of women and girls? And that men who claim to 'feel like' women would then disavow the unisex 'woman gender identity' space and demand entry into the 'exclusionist' female one?

Hilariously true!
It would also have TRAs outside screaming slurs.

That is what they did at Evergreen State College when the trans identified male showed up to expose himself to the girls swim team. In the name of equal rights they let the male control the space and sent the girls who did not want to strip in front of him, all of them, to a closet.

@stillscreaming you don't speak for Irish women, most of whom are totally unaware of the GRA. And a small but well-placed group caused a lot of hurt and offence to our English sisters with their stupid offensive "Terfs out" letter, if that's not attempted censorship, what is?

Your word salad posting style and policing of who's a proper feminist is very familiar...is Twitter quiet today or something?

I have to say thebewilderness has always come across as a very honest, straightforward poster to me.

That is very kind of you to say, PencilsInSpace.
I am wrong from time to time, as are we all, but I like to think I correct myself when I am made aware of it.

@pencilsinspace

"Prison service: We go by legal sex. Trans people without a GRC will be dealt with case by case but a TW with a GRC must be treated the same as any other legally female prisoner.

Maria Miller: We're going to give out GRCs to anyone who wants one."

Result: any male prisoner who wants to be housed in women's prisons applies for, and gets, a GRC. No safeguards, no GD diagnosis required. And we're supposed to trust men who have broken the law at least once, in some cases by raping women, not to misuse this? Pull the other leg, it has bells on.

In this thread, in my opinion, SS gave us a mini class in DARVO.

I've not read all comments so this has probably been said but...

"With a single word – “sigh” – Soames ensured that he would be cast in this controversy as the voice of cloth-eared patriarchy. As it happens, he is no such thing. In the best sense of the word, he is a liberal who, faced with an ethical conundrum, decided to err on the side of trust of his customers"

But he is not really trusting his customers, he is requiring his female customers to trust his make customers on his say so, based on....nothinh but s feeling.

When did feelings replace reality.... Oh wait.

He is directly asking women to trust men. We have no basis for trusting strange men, none whatsoever.

Yes, that is what I meant but I was on my phone and it's full of typos!

But he is not really trusting his customers, he is requiring his female customers to trust his male customers (if they identify as female) on his say so, based on....nothing but a feeling.

That's what I meant.

rowdy - I know. The thread suddenly moved very fast!

My point about comfort and dignity was in response to Still's post saying that there was no argument on safety grounds to sharing single sex spaces with TW, only comfort. Personally, I think comfort / dignity / decency are worth fighting for - we know what happens when people lose those things

Sorry, back on page one @rowdywoman1 you said

"Where does that position leave all the teenage girls transitioning - the main group growing in numbers?"

and "I am especially concerned about the targeting of schools and children and genuinely don't know whether those leading the charities are AGP or otherwise"

Sorry, I know things have moved on in the thread but I wanted to say, IMHO, I think the 'trans movement' is curiously very quiet on the issue of trans boys and their growing numbers.

What I have seen is articles questioning even the idea of 'Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria' (ROGD) and that feels very dismissive of a new new phenomenon and of reasons that could explain it.

It does seem as if ROGD does appear to affect females more than males, but I am willing to say I could be totally wrong. But my point is I don't think the trans community has any real concern for these young girls expressing themsevles as boys. Since they seem to conflate all 'trans' as the same.

@italiangreyhound You've hit the nail on the head. Soames is requiring women travelling in sleeper accommodation to play russian roulette or else pay extra to get a solo compartment. Mind the gender pay gap and then pay a safety premium too! Males outnumber females 50:1 as sexual offenders and there is evidence that TIMs offend as often as non trans males. Making women share with TIMs puts women at risk, especially after the Met's recent statements about rape complainants and the fear of being branded a "transphobe" if we file a complaint.

@italiangreyhound I have a hypothesis that "ROGD", with its clustering of cases and high proportion of female victims, is to modern teen girls what anorexia was to my generation when I was a teen: a way of trying to control a body that is growing breasts and hips and bleeding every month, a way of trying to stop becoming the target of harassment and sexual objectification.

@olennaswimple Yes, comfort and dignity are important.

Rape physically hurts the vagina and so a rape victim going for a coil fitting or smear test, or any other procedure involving a speculum, has to endure pain in the same place that her rapist hurt her. Some days, I can cope with a male medical professional inflicting that pain on me, other days I really really can't cope and I need a female that day otherwise I can't go ahead with the exam.

If women start being called "bigot" for refusing a trans woman nurse, or are told that they can't request that a nurse be a biological female, the most vulnerable womenrape victims, FGM victims, abuse victimswill stop attending smear tests and women will die.

I have to say thebewilderness has always come across as a very honest, straightforward poster to me.

Me too. Not given to obfuscation, much less lying.