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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To any trans activists reading this forum

160 replies

yetanothertranswoman · 01/04/2018 20:15

Fuck off fucking life up for those trans people trying to live our lives.

I heard about some of the stuff people like you got up to but I've had my eyes opened today. Seriously opened.

Stop talking about lady penises.
Stop saying you are a woman.
Stop demanding women be quiet when they raise concerns about what's happening.
Stop harassing woman online
Stop intimidating women trying to speak about their concerns.
Stop initimidating women trying to do a clothes swap.
Stop demanding access to female spaces and just saying "It will be ok"
Stop taking women's spaces as women's officers when you haven't got a fucking clue about life as a woman.

All you are fucking doing is making life more difficult for the rest of us and scaring the shit out of women.

Yes - trans people exist. Some of us have gender dysphoria which is bloody hard to live with. Some people just seem to think that putting on a skirt is enough to make you 'a woman'.

Are you capable of thinking about women and their concerns? All I've seen online is people saying it will be ok.

No - trans people are not the enemy. But there are some trans people and trans activists who scare the shit out of me with their demands and their behaviour.

I've tried to keep my head low and keep out of all this. But no more.

You don't speak for me and you don't speak for many trans people out there.

OP posts:
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Greymisty · 09/04/2018 17:42

WineGin well said pps GinWine

yetanothertranswoman · 12/04/2018 17:34

I just need to add to this after today

Stop fucking trying to get MN shut down as a place to have important conversations.

And stop fucking hassling venues which are hosting events where women and transwomen are meeting to discuss possible issues just because you are scared of women meeting.

Not in my name

OP posts:
Jayceedove · 12/04/2018 17:56

By far the best open discussion on these matters are occurring here.

Those in the trans community who believe in self ID should be busting a gut to persuade by reasoned argument why women in general and not a few transsexual women like yetanother and myself consider these plans dangerous.

For them. For us. For women.

If they have a case, present it, calmly. Let us discuss it.

If instead you run away, diss Mumsnet and cry transphobia do not be surprised if most sensible people see that as an inability to support what you want us all to accept.

I am sure many of us are willing to listen. But you have to do so with civility not hostility.

ReluctantCamper · 12/04/2018 18:24

today is a bad day. feminism is currently muted on this site. then I saw the debacle in cardiff.

i could fucking cry.

what the actual fuckity fuck is going on.

all we can do is keep talking. be reasonable, be open, but keep, keep talking about this. don't be silenced.

Flowers for those doing that.

moofolk · 12/04/2018 19:19

reluctant what have I missed about today?

yet and jaycee and all the wonderful feminists of mumsnet. BrewThanks

Greymisty · 12/04/2018 19:52

Wish this could be made into a sticky.

UpstartCrow · 12/04/2018 19:59

Thank you Flowers

picklemepopcorn · 12/04/2018 20:06
Thanks

For every one slogging on trying to talk about this calmly. And extra Thanks for the trans people so badly impacted by the growing polarisation.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 12/04/2018 20:16

Flowers yet, jaycee and all. I could not ask for better company here on the wrong side of history

KateMiddleton1965 · 13/04/2018 11:32

Dear All,

I have just read through this thread and it has me feel very emotional. I am a woman with a transsexual past and I am very distressed by this unnecessary conflict which has been created by Maria Miller and her laughable Women and Equality Committee.

Justine Greening was interviewed some time ago saying that it should be easier to change your gender and the current system is intrusive and involves going to see your GP and a whole medical process gets kicked off. They want to streamline the process and demedicalise it and to stop treating people changing their gender as if it was some medical problem that needs fixing. This is a choice that people are making....

Everything she said in this interview is absolute nonsense. it is easy to find by googling "Justine Greening Gender Recognition"

And that will also bring up Theresa May's ludicrous speech in which she claims that "being trans is not an illness and should not be treated as such".

Similarly, Jeremy Corbyn's pronouncements about how people have to undergo "invasive medical tests" to get a GRC is simply not true and utterly clueless.

There is a long and ignoble legal history as far as the legal status of people in this country who have had "sex changes" is concerned.

This goes back to April Ashley's divorce case in Corbett V Corbett in in 1970. April being declared to be legally male meant that everyone in this position lost their rights. Before this, people used to quietly change their birth certificate and get on with their life.

One of those responsible for April losing her case was John Randall, the former clinical lead at Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic. If I remember correctly, Randall gave evidence that April was properly classified as a "male to female homosexual transsexualist" .

As Liz Hodgkinson points out in her book "Bodyshock: the truth about changing sex" (1987), it is interesting to speculate about the way the case might have gone if April had been an old Etonian and her husband from a Liverpool slum.

The Charing Cross "Gender Identity Clinic" started in 1966 and so Randall's evidence caused direct harm to his patients.

In 1979, the BBC broadcast "A Change of Sex" and there is an infamous scene with John Randall interrogating Julia Grant which can be found by looking for "Charing Cross Gender Identity Clinic".

In that clip, Julia Grant had gone off and had breast surgery without doing a year of the so-called "Real Life Test".

When she tells him, Randall says, "I must say, I take extreme exception to you doing that. This is a medical matter and not a personal choice".

That is the reality of the situation and the reason why, after people like Mark Rees and Caroline "Tula" Cossey had taken the Government to the European Court of Human Rights, the ECHR eventually judged that the Government had to act in "Goodwin V United Kingdom" (2002).

Essentially, the NHS were providing treatment, including surgery, and the Government were failing to recognise the results of that treatment leading to feelings of anxiety, vulnerability and humiliation.

The Government had taken no steps to address the suffering and distress experienced by the applicant and other post -operative transsexuals and it was no longer a matter of controversy requiring the elapse of further time to cast light on the issues involved.

This judgement only applied to people who had been through the whole medical process and I can assure all of those reading this that going through a hellish and traumatic social and medical process only to be officially undermined by being a "non-person in the eyes of the law" is not an experience that I would wish on my worst enemy.

As I explained to my GP in 2004, all I have ever wanted to do was sort out my medical problem and make a positive contribution to society.

On October 14th 2004, I wrote a letter to Ian Beales, the head of the Press Complaints Commission, which Christine Burns subsequently published in a dossier entitled "Transsexual People and the Press".

This criminal offence under Article 8 is typical of the "trans" activists and you can read the letter in that dossier which remains online in spite of the fact that I wrote to "Squeaker" explaining how upset I was about it. pp38-39

Ian Beales responded by writing me a kind and humane and personal email saying that he found my account of my experiences particularly sad and harrowing and asked me if I was prepared to advise the PCC committee on a series of questions relating to press coverage.

I was delighted to do so and, from what I remember, the most positive examples I could provide were the serialisation of Conundrum by Jan Morris in The Sunday Times in 1974 and a 2002 Independent article by Deborah Orr.

When I wrote to Ian Beales in 2004, I really hoped that our ordeal might be coming to an end but this has not happened because of the influence of un-elected narcissistic "trans" activists on the Government.

There is an Equality and Human Rights commission film on utube

in which Stephen Whittle defines "trans" as "transvestite, transsexual, transgender" and talks about his surgically constructed prick.

By that definition, Dr Michael Haslam, Beaumont Society transvestite, Gender "psychiatrist" and convicted sexual criminal is "trans".

As a survivor/victim of sexual assault, I take extreme exception to being put in a category with someone like him and I am not alone in feeling great anger about this

As far as I am aware, the "trans" supports and so-called "trans community" in general have been silent about the experiences of the vulnerable women assaulted by "Dr" Michael Haslam and if anyone has any evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

KateMiddleton1965 · 13/04/2018 15:17

The OP has written "stop saying you are a woman". I would argue that people should be able to say whatever they like but it doesn't mean that other people have to agree and it is realistic to acknowledge that there are differences.

On the evening of 15 November 1982, when I was seventeen, I had a final interview with Warden Dennis Silk of St Peter's College, Radley in his personal study.

Dennis gave me a glass of sherry and asked me what the problems were.

I made three chief points:

"The public school system is unfair, Sir! Why should I get this education and not someone else? I don't even like it here."

Dennis conceded the point and in fact makes the point that the education system is divisive in episode three of the BBC documentary "Public school 1980" which was filmed in 1979 during the general elections. I have this on my utube channel and get a highly ironic mention during the parent's meeting at 16:45

My second point was that the bullying of [a certain foreign student] was disgraceful and someone should have done something to stop it.

Dennis said that he had been offered the chance to leave after O level.

My third point was that I had known that I was a girl rather than a boy from the age of seven and was jolly well going to be a woman when I grew up and nobody would be able to stop me.

Dennis said, "I've met Jan Morris. Charming woman. Charming. Very interesting having you around the place.

It was most inspiring at the time that Dennis, who had taught me English the year before and knew my abilities better than anyone else, said it was OK and I can well remember feeling exhilarated as I left his study.

At that time, my objective was to gather information and seek medical/adult/ support and further information so I could eventually have surgery at the age of twenty-one after making a fully informed choice.

It was always obvious to me that solving my personal medical problem was about getting a life and not just an operation. I knew it was going to be a complex, difficult and dangerous process but I thought it would be worth it in order to be myself.

I don't think that calling myself a woman, whilst acknowledging my past, is hurting anyone else. After all, the British Government issued me with a new birth certificate back in 2006 and I have been accepted in the way I see myself to the extent of being invited to a women's group years ago ( it never actually happened) and an initially all female prayer group back in 2007 . I felt honoured to be included and it was the choice of the people involved.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 13/04/2018 17:37

Flowers Kate

It sounds as though you have had some very difficult experiences. I agree that nobody should be a 'non-person in the eyes of the law'.

Most of us here would agree with your point that it is the conflation of different groups under the trans 'umbrella' that is causing all this distress and potential harm. Unfortunately we feel we need to be much clearer about sex-based differences and the definitions of 'woman' and 'female' than we ever had to be in the past, since these definitions are now being broadened to the point of risking all our sex-based protections. This is harming us and it's harming you as well. I'm so sorry about that.

Jayceedove · 13/04/2018 17:54

Kate, welcome on here. I think you will find some friendly company.

I did PM you about your first message as I did not want to reply with personal chat about my direct experience of John Randall (who was my psychiatrist for 5 years in the 1970s so I got to know him quite well and we talked about his court case evidence and why he gave it).

It can be a bit self centred if you do that too much on what is a Feminist Chat forum so, after being told off a few times, I decided to not do it on here this time. Hence the PM instead.

But I think we certainly have shared a few experiences - though you are a decade or so younger than me. Jan Morris was even a major help to my family when I was transitioning and they were scared.

KateMiddleton1965 · 13/04/2018 18:10

It would be hard for anyone with any sense to draw the conclusion from the Women and Equality report that the real problem that needs to be addressed is being able to change your birth certificate online on the basis of self -identification.

There are all kind of things in life where one has to prove one's identity or competence to the authorities. I see no reason why this most basic aspect of one's identity should be any different.

It might be that the system might need reforming and it might be the case that there will be no problem if the Government do this but I would like to see the evidence. All the evidence that I have seen so far suggests that this is very problematic and likely to be dangerous.

KateMiddleton1965 · 13/04/2018 18:33

TallulahWaitingInTheRain Thank you for the friendly welcome.

I totally agree that we need to be clear about sex based protections and that is what this really about; sex not "gender".

The distinction between the two was invented by psychiatrists like Professor John Money and Robert Stoller who wrote, in Sex and Gender (1969) that sex is biological and gender is "psychological" or "social"

That distinction was partly made to explain people like me and doesn't make sense in the same way that the Gender Recognition Act 2004 enables people to change the sex on their birth certificate.

The whole matter is complex and holistic as it isn't possible to separate psychology from biology.

CharlieParley · 13/04/2018 18:49

Kate welcome to the forum and thank you for giving such personal insight into your story Flowers. It sounds quite similar to that of other transsexuals who transitioned many years ago and I honestly hope it is no longer this difficult and that the EA and the GRA have helped in keeping you safe.

You are right to be upset. Prior to becoming aware of this debate (mostly thanks to the no platforming of feminist speakers and the assault on Maria Mac at Speakers Corner) I would never have argued with anyone about who people are.

And I still won't with those who I actually know IRL, especially not with a transsexual who's made the ultimate commitment to have surgery. It's such a scary thing to do, I can't imagine anyone does it for shits and giggles. And I won't do it with genderqueer or non-binary or trans people either. Coz I've never given a toss about people's identities. I care about what people do and always, always want to know why they do what they do.

Live and let live. Together - peacefully, happily, productively.

Your rights and mine, respected.

Now though I find myself in a world, where women are silenced, our concerns are not just ignored but called hateful and bigoted. Where women and girls are no longer even allowed to set their own boundaries (not that they were ever respected, but at least it was accepted that we had a right to set them). My biology is a social construct. My pain imaginary, I suppose.

I wouldn't have denied you use of the word woman to describe yourself or the way you live your life before I became aware of this conflict. And I won't now because you do not deny that we are different. Equal but different. And you're not denying reality, you're not asking me to stop talking about female biology as the basis of women's oppression.

Transsexuals and women have co-existed peacefully for decades. This covenant based on mutual respect and trust is being broken by trans activists though.

That's why, when I debate this issue with those trans activists who tell me I'm a menstruator not a woman, a breastfeeding parent not a mum, a TERF not a feminist, I will not ever accept or accede that transwomen are women where material reality is concerned.

Maybe this is too subtle or pointless a difference, maybe it's unhelpful or selfish, but that's where I have arrived at.

You are welcome. TRAs are not.

Jayceedove · 13/04/2018 20:58

Charlie is right Kate. Just be prepared because you will get some of this back from the trans activists. I have since posting on here over the past few weeks. They can be sadly rather quick to define an enemy as anyone who does not agree with what they want.

ZERF · 13/04/2018 21:20

Thankskate

AngryAttackKittens · 13/04/2018 21:30

And it's telling, isn't it? I disagree with Katie Hopkins on almost every issue, but it would never occur to me to tell her that she's not a woman because she holds opinions that I consider terrible, or threaten to do various unpleasant things to her if she doesn't shut up. Certainly I'd never come up with an term like "truscum" to describe women whose views I disagree with.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 13/04/2018 22:35

Hi kate Flowers
Everything Charlie said Star

NoSquirrels · 13/04/2018 22:48

@CharlieParley
Powerful post. I agree wholeheartedly.

yetanothertranswoman · 16/04/2018 22:13

And so today looks like a good day to bump this message.

India - if you're reading this - just playback the recording and think how you came across.

I know there are comments on here you don't like. But there are also many women who have concerns about self ID. When you start saying "I am a woman" all the time, talking over people in arguments and not listening to other people, people just turn off and turn against you.

You've got a platform. You've been on CBB and get to go on TV shows. But unfortunately, those transwomen with platforms don't seem to want to build bridges between communities. It's all barriers.

And Julia - if you're reading this. There are transwomen who do also have concerns over self ID. But we don't have a platform. We just try to live our lives as we always have. Without putting our heads above the parapets. We don't get heard and for a long time, we haven't wanted to be heard. Maybe we need to be heard.

OP posts:
HairyBallTheorem · 16/04/2018 22:42

Thanks, yetanother - as always, your comments are so sane and measured.

yetanothertranswoman · 16/04/2018 22:47

Thanks - I listened to India on the radio this morning and it was so predictable.

Just like Jane Fae last week.

It's so hard to listen to these people. I hope that people don't judge a community by the action of some people from that community - but they do form an impression.

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Voice0fReason · 16/04/2018 23:11

Thank you yetanother Flowers

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