Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Yes, I am part of the problem because men identifying as women is the real issue instead of men identifying as men in the context of toxic masculinity

Top trumps in suffering. Lovely way to support all women.

DD has just insisted she has a human right to pick her nose AND eat it ...

Yes, I am part of the problem because men identifying as women is the real issue instead of men identifying as men in the context of toxic masculinity

It is a real issue.

Too much brainwashing. Mind so open, the brains fell out.

Out of interest, the toilets you're setting up in South Africa, in a context of (as you yourself acknowledge) massive sexual violence - are they single sex? Did the women you're providing the toilets for express any preference?

OK, I am back at work tomorrow after the public holidays. I will ask the 2 colleagues most involved in supporting abused women. One is from West Africa, here as a refugee, years of experience counselling women who are experiencing domestic violence. Other would have been classified 'coloured - Muslim subset'. Also trained and experienced in trauma counselling.

I will ask them how abusive the rail company's decision is. I suspect that they will collapse with laughter. But I will report back. And tbh, their view carries more weight with me than anyone here

That is completely irrelevant as to whether or not the train company is complying with its contract commitments in relation to the occupancy of shared carriages.

OK, I am back at work tomorrow after the public holidays. I will ask the 2 colleagues most involved in supporting abused women. One is from West Africa, here as a refugee, years of experience counselling women who are experiencing domestic violence. Other would have been classified 'coloured - Muslim subset'. Also trained and experienced in trauma counselling.

Marvellous, and meanwhile you'll still be wrong and grossly overstepping when you tell us that the people in these fields per se agree with you, rather than just the people you know who are in those fields. You do not speak for us all. Cease attempting to.

DD has just insisted she has a human right to pick her nose AND eat it ..

She sounds smarter than you do already.

Allington, can you really not understand why women would not feel safe and comfortable sharing overnight accommodation with men they don't know? Really?

doesn't anyone need a drink yet!!!

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper. If you have one booked, cancel and demand a refund - I am with you all the way.

spring yep, bottle opened. It's amazing what is imagined about you when you dare to disagree with the crowd. No matter how much you are committed to gender equality and live to your life by that ethos.

There seems to be no space for genuine disagreement

Who would you consider more repressed than the people you’re going to ask? Because I’ll go and ask them. And then someone can go and ask the people below them and so on and so on.
Meanwhile back in the real world we can actually fight more than one cause and realise that women have issues with safety the world over.

You are being deliberately disingenuous and I believe you to be of the Claig variety.

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper.

Leaving aside all the points people have made repeatedly about how the sleeper is often the only way to get where they need to be for the money they have:

Until very recently the shared sleeper accommodation was single-sex. This has now changed, although they are still advertising it as if it hasn't. Why is it unreasonable to complain about this change? Why is it unreasonable to want single-sex accommodation?

So why should women who don’t want to sleep with men they don’t know have their preferences come below transwomen (men) who don’t want to sleep with women they don’t know?

The problem here is male violence.
Transwomen are a subset of men, so when do they take responsibility for their safety rather than pinning it on women?

If transwomen feel safe around men then they need to campaign against the dangerous men (feminists would probably be able to help them - we know how to fight for our rights) not the equally as at risk women.
By opening up the spaces to anyone who identifies as women they are putting not only women but transwomen at risk. It’s selfish in the extreme.

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper

Don't want to be subjected to sexual harassment. Don't go out in public.

This is not how to work to support women. I really don't care about your virtue signalling re women in SA or other countries in Africa - you clearly have a hierarchy of "deserving" women (victims whom you can patronise), and "undeserving" women.

You're right. The people I will ask don't know their own best interests as well as you do.

Or perhaps, given they are educated and independent women, you have an incredibly ignorant and prejudiced view of black women, who are capable of understanding the complexities of gender relations as much (hey, maybe more?) than you do?

Allington
Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper. If you have one booked, cancel and demand a refund - I am with you all the way

The bookings are offered on the basis of selecting to share with male or female. Why are you wittering on about "don't book a sleeper" ? The bookings are not offered as mixed booking.

Its simple really, 'women only' should mean has a vagina not a penis, (therefore cannot Rape....)

Also it should be perfectly understandable, to all people of all orientations, why this is fair and safe.

Every sleeper train has a carriage with the usual seats, which are cheaper. No one has to use a sleeper to get to wherever they need. A sleeper is a luxury. Use it or not, according to your preference.

Allington, you admit yourself you are not familiar with the Caledonian sleeper. Many of us here have used it often.

If you need to be at your destination for an 8am meeting that you need to be awake for, and you want to actually sleep the night before, travelling in the upright seats is really not an option. You can (and I'm sure will!) dismiss this out of hand as it doesn't fit your 'these women are just being silly spoilt brats' narrative, but I've travelled on the sleeper, including in the seated carriages. I know what I'm talking about here.

Of course women may not want to share with men they don't know. Don't book a sleeper. If you have one booked, cancel and demand a refund - I am with you all the way.

You still haven't answered the question around why transwomen who don't want to share facilities with men are perfectly reasonable in their concerns and we should legislate for their concerns, but women who feel the same have to either budge over or change their plans, but cannot legitimately talk about their discomfort around sharing with a man?

Also, you haven't answered my questions: why do you think it is unreasonable for women to complain about the (unacknowledged) change in policy? And why is it unreasonable for women to want single-sex sleeping accommodation?

Or perhaps, given they are educated and independent women, you have an incredibly ignorant and prejudiced view of black women, who are capable of understanding the complexities of gender relations as much (hey, maybe more?) than you do?

This is completely irrelevant to the point being debated.

The Caledonian Sleeper offers single sex segregated accommodation for those who want to share but in reality are offerring accommodation based on self- declared gender.

Personally this does not affect me- sharing with any stranger is a non-starter (and personally I also think some of the " a trans woman might hear me unwrap a tampon so we can't have unusex toilets " arguments on FWR are ridiculous) but even I get this point.

Then pay for a single.

You have (unlike all too many women - and men) a choice. Pay extra and be rested. Pay less and be more uncomfortable.

It is something the vast majority of the world understands.

Then pay for a single.

Not everyone can afford to pay for a single. Because they are more expensive. People who can afford to pay for a single generally do pay for a single, because it's nicer.

Once again: why do you think single-sex accommodation (as still advertised by Cal Sleeper!) is an unreasonable thing to want?