Row over women-only sleeping berths on trains; Men V Mumsnet!

[SuitedandBooted]

Would anyone like to try and put some comments on this story - I don't seem to be allowed!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Allington is unable to answer the question, this was not covered in the gender instruction manual.

Budge up old fashioned style ladies, lots of uncomfortable seats over there. You sit up the entire length of the country, where we can keep an eye on you.
Lead the comfort of the bunks to the new women.

Actually I don't have a qualification in gender studies - sorry. In development, then a specific interest in gender (being, y'know, female). But I am interested in evidence and logic. So I do question, for example, stats that get extrapolated from men who would object (violently) from.being associated with trans-women, being considered as typical (statistically) of the likelihood of a trans-women being a rapist

Female and male - protected characteristic - sex.

To me a man is a man and how they identify is irrelevant. It's only trans people who believe that identifying as a woman if you are a man magics you in to becoming a woman.
There are a small number of m to f transexuals I'd be happy sharing a sleeper cabin with, generally those who did full transitioning several years ago and are hard to tell from women.
Men in dresses can share with the men. Identifying as a woman is just magical thinking. Just accept you are a feminine man.

Poor Allington has been reduced to word salad.

I could also get over having my smear test done by a man, having a shower with a naked man at the pool and having a man sharing the women’s ward at hospital. I could totally get over all these things but I shouldn’t have to because we have sex segregation for a reason.

Men want it too btw. My uncle is currently having problems with his catheter. His nephew is attending the medical appts with him rather than his niece who usually takes the lead. For dignity and privacy reasons. He could just get over it but instead his wishes are treated with respect.

Why is having a sleeper train for long journeys being seen as a "luxury" rather than a pragmatic, sensible way to travel?

Loads of countries have sleeper berths in trains, it's not a "first world luxury". I went on a sleeper train in Europe last summer, they offer single sex or mixed berths, 6 to a cabin, or you can pay to have it to yourself eg a family of 4 pays for the 6 and gets a cabin to themselves. The cabins lock on the inside so the people inside in their night gear can feel safe.

If you pick single sex you want single sex for god's sake. Most men would be equally uncomfortable having a random women in with them (although she'd be much less of a threat than vice versa).

You have (unlike all too many women - and men) a choice. Pay extra and be rested. Pay less and be more uncomfortable.

Excellent. So if you're well off, you can reduce your risk of assault. If you're poor, tough.

Allington I'll say again, though I'm sure it'll fall on deaf ears, women have been happily accommodating transsexual women for years. They are not the problem. The likes of Davina Ayton are the problem.

Ask your vulnerable colleagues/clients if they'd be happy to share accommodation with that individual.

I will never understand how this can be seen as a progressive, trendy idea, when it is basically reducing people to stereotypes - "Oh, you like girly things, then you must be a girl! (even if you've got a dick)".

I spent a large amount of the Eighties at art schools in London. One of my house-mates was Newport's answer to Boy George - a beautiful, androgynous fashion student, who spent much of his time restyling mine and other peoples hair and clothes. He was utterly "feminine", gay, but always, always a man. He never called himself a girl, never presumed he knew much about the life-experiences of women. He just got on with his own thing, - challenging people's preconceptions of what men are, and where their interests and talents lie. Surely THAT is truly progressive?

He is no longer with us, and I truly worry what will happen to young, gay men who feel like him. Will they be allowed to develop their lives and interests without interference? Or will be told they are Transwomen, and need to join the other sex?

Did someone up thread mention "human rights" and I missed it?
Allington keeps referring to human rights and im not sure why.

As for examples of trans causing issues - Tara Hudson, Davina Ayrton, quite a few whose names I can't recall.

I can't understand all the first world shit. Alliington, you have access to the web, so check your privilege and don't whine about opening a bottle because no one understands you when you refuse to answer politely worded queries.

So I do question, for example, stats that get extrapolated from men who would object (violently) from.being associated with trans-women, being considered as typical (statistically) of the likelihood of a trans-women being a rapist

Why would they be less likely? You know, with all your evidence and logic?

To quote the rules of misogyny with thanks to the Bewilderness:

2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

And probably others apply too.

Ahh human rights. The Equality Act is a good starting point. The drafters clearly envisaged the legality of single sex facilities provided by services providers under because there is a whole section of exceptions to the normal rule (about service providers not discriminating) concerning sex discrimination (note the Equality Act states "sex" not "gender") in Schedule 3. It includes:

One of the exceptions is that it is not discrimination to provide single sex facilities where—

(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

The next section then states:

Gender reassignment

28(1)A person does not contravene section 29 (the normal rule about not discriminating when providing services to the public), so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
(2)The matters are—

(a)the provision of separate services for persons of each sex;

(b)the provision of separate services differently for persons of each sex;

(c)the provision of a service only to persons of one sex.

So the Act allows that providing sex-segregated services does not constitute transgender discrimination providing it can be shown to be a propionate means to achieve a legitimate aim (and clearly privacy, safety, psychological and modesty considerations are recognised by the section above).

So I dont consider requiring only women to use single accommodation would be discrimination on the grounds of transgender.

In contrast I think that a female user of the rail service, if they show they are deterred from using the service, may have a claim for indirect sex discrimination if it required them to share, with self IDing TW, the single sex accommodation.

I am less clear about TW with a GRC as I am less familiar with the legislation about what their legal status vis a vis the Equality Act is.

am less clear about TW with a GRC as I am less familiar with the legislation about what their legal status vis a vis the Equality Act is.

I agree with you but think a major problem here, which lets self ID in by the back door, is that you're not really supposed to ask if someone has a GRC. That needs to end.

Why does Allington believe that women who wish to travel safely in a bunk in shared accommodation should pay more than a man?

If women are to forego the shared cabins in order to guarantee not being made vulnerable by being locked in with a man, they will have to pay more for a single berth (or spend the night awake in the seats). That is discrimination.

Allington why are you in favour of discrimination against women?

Timely article on the "golden age" of the sleeper: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/between-the-lines-of-rail-s-golden-age-7qxfgwhpx?shareToken=194dfc56e61fd33472c8df112cc4534b

Two points Allington:

1. Your Muslim colleague would be totally happy sharing a bedspace with a man? Does she also assert that all her Muslim fellow women would be happy to share a space like that with a man? She may be OK with it, I can guarantee you that the majority of Muslim women would not be.

1. You say that they sleepers are a luxury and seats are available. But actually, your Muslim colleague or her fellow Muslim sisters could well be legally disadvantaged if the only safe or acceptable way for her to travel if she didnt want to share with a man was to forgo the cabin and take a lower, less comfortable transport mode. thats what legally disadvantaged IS it’s worse outcomes due to protected characteristics.

Imagine a first class and a third class carriage. The first is luxurious, the third is very uncomfortable. In the first cabin is an exhibition of ku klux klan memorabilia and several VERY vocal supporters, armed and no guard. A black passenger embarks. Where does he sit? Technically he can sit in first. Can his safety be assured in first? No. So he is forced to sit in third. He is disadvantaged on the basis of a protected characteristic - his race.

Our Muslim woman is disadvantaged on the basis of her religion by being forced to either share with a man or choose a lower level of service

Can you not understand how this disadvantages people? It’s denying the comfortable accommodation to people with certain characteristics. It’s obvious you e never used the Caly Sleeper - you would not be as fit for an important work meeting after a night in the seats.

Loads of countries have sleeper berths in trains, it's not a "first world luxury". I went on a sleeper train in Europe last summer, they offer single sex or mixed berths

This made me check my country's sleeper trains and phew, they just say male or female cabins, no mention of how anyone identifies.

Unfortunately that's what ScotRail /Cal Sleeper website also says.

They will spring any surprise on you when you board and then it's too late.

www.sleeper.scot/on-board/accommodation

I think that there are plenty of TRAs about who are engaging with single sex services in order to see what happens, kicking up a fuss if they are not accommodated how they want, and in the current climate companies fold very quickly.

This is the topshop thing >> a man who is not a TW but "gender fluid" wanted to use the girls fitting rooms. They said no. He kicked off. They said yes, anyone can use whichever they choose, teenage girls in underwear and flimsy gappy curtains and all.

In this rail thing it's one protected characteristic against another. One has to "win". On top of this it's men v women, and men win, as this is how society is set up. I have never seen an example of a transman doing this sort of thing - has anyone else?

So - TW / gender fluid feels like a woman today person rocks up for their women's sleeper berth. They are in with a 15yo girl - because yes why not? I'm sure lone teens use these services for various reasons.

Actually in this case, the teen girl would probably be polite and uncomfortable and not say anything as that's the way we're socialised, and it is very hard to speak up when you're young.

OK so scrub that one, it's an older women who goes and complains to staff. What do they do? Sleeper trains are often full. They need to choose. Does someone need to get off? Who? My guess it would be the complainant ie the woman.

That's how I'd see it playing out IRL.

AND she would be lambasted for being unprepared to share with a man who IDd as a woman that day and compared to a racist who wouldn't share with a non white person.

THAT is what would happen.

How do we feel about younger travellers being shut in with the top shop man, whose mate believes underage girls are "kinky". That is the reality here - these are the type of people who are pushing the boundaries.

Sorry "little girls" are kinky.

And top shop man "dresses up" as 15 yo girls and pouts for the camera ie his idea of "female" is very young and highly sexualised.

So - TW / gender fluid feels like a woman today person rocks up for their women's sleeper berth. They are in with a 15yo girl - because yes why not? I'm sure lone teens use these services for various reasons

Under 16s cannot travel in the Caledonian sleeper unaccompanied. You can't even book the cabin for solo occupancy for them. Would you really even think of booking a 15 year old to share with an unknown adult?

Oh that's good, I'm very surprised though.

Young people travel by themselves all the time including long haul flights etc. so I imagined they would be allowed to!