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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Kiri Tunks

169 replies

GenderApostate · 31/03/2018 10:11

Kiri has been voted in as President of the NUT, she is openly gender critical and a supporter of A Womans Place UK. I think this shows that teachers are not as in thrall to the TRAs as said groups think.

If only we had someone in the Government Education department who was so sensible and protective of the rights of Women and Children.
Small victories will get us there in the end.

OP posts:
titchy · 04/04/2018 17:02

GRC is from age 20. The requirement is to live as male as an adult for two years, which cannot start until the 18th Birthday.

Your passport can of course be changed, but legally you're still female.

Thanksthough. You sound like you've had a very troubled childhood which you haven't really dealt with. Can I urge you to seek counselling - and not counselling that affirms your gender identity. You'll be a much better teacher if you seek to understand yourself.

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 17:06

I respect your concerns, but they are uneducated concerns. Hence why I am here putting my experience on it in order to help you understand. The 2 years thing does not start on your 18th birthday. It starts from when you can prove you’ve been living as a Male for 2 years. Example, deedpoll, change in medical records, nations insurance etc. I have undergone a hell of a lot of counselling. All of which has not changed a thing

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 17:06

Also there are numerous types of bottom surgery, not just this “inflate” you keep talking about. Maybe I’m not the one who has to do research??

Ah, sorry, when you were talking about a penis I assumed you were talking about a phalloplasty.

Of course with a metoidioplasty you get some degree of natural erection but it is more of an enlarged clitoris than a penis, and is likely to rather short for penetrative sex.

This site is very good for you to read up on stories from trans people of their surgeries..

www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,70891.msg1995974.html#msg1995974

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 17:07

GRC is from age 20. The requirement is to live as male as an adult for two years, which cannot start until the 18th Birthday

That is incorrect. Sawyer is right about this.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 17:08

The shape is the same, the function is the same, the scarring is covered by pubic hair, the action is the same, the ability to inseminate is the only difference

I'm really sorry, but that simply is not true.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 04/04/2018 17:09

@sawyer kudos to you for sticking around.

You are coming from a direction where to feel male is to be male. The gender critical feminists here don't see there is any scientific basis for that. If your sex is female, you are female, however much that might cause distress. I respect the fact that gender dysphoria (particularly when you are young and vulnerable and a victim of appalling abuse) must be horrendous at worst to deal with and so I would happily use male pronouns in your presence and maintain a charade that you are male. It doesn't hurt me to do that and I don't view you or any other trans person as an immediate threat to me - far from it. In fact I feel for you given that life must be tough at times. How your school treated you is absolutely appalling.

What people here are so worried about is men abusing the system and gaining access to vulnerable women. No, I don't believe that people who go to any lengths to transition are perverts who are doing it to hurt other people. But I do believe some men will exploit the whole trans debate to do harm. Also there are many rape victims who don't want male people in their spaces, even if they are nice transwomen who mean them no harm. It's too traumatic for them. Why shouldn't they be protected? A third, gender-neutral space gives trans people and everyone else safety and dignity (and I'm saying that knowing there's been an honour system for years where trans people can use the bathroom of their choosing if they keep their heads down and get on with it).

If you feel that inner feeling makes you magically change sex in some way then you aren't going to reconcile with what we are saying. It's that simple. Can you understand that women have historically been oppressed because of their sex. A little girl who is about to undergo fgm or child marriage or be raped can't, unfortunately, say - wait I'm not a girl, I don't consent to this. It's a nonsense. There are many negatives to me to being female but that is what I am, just as I am disabled despite desperately wanting not to be (and having an inner identity of not being, after I spent much of my childhood having no physical restrictions). Reality stinks but there you go. It is what it is. If I take it literally that you're male because you feel you are, then I have to take it literally at Rachel Dolezal is literally black because she feels she is, even though I can see she is Caucasian.

Freshlylaidterf · 04/04/2018 17:09

so the student wouldn’t be sharing with a man, they’d be sharing with another woman
No not another woman. A man. Its impossible to change sex.

Breakingthewaves · 04/04/2018 17:11

Sawyer I respect you for coming on here. I don't agree with a lot of what you say. Thanks for sharing your story though I know someone who is going through something similar.

flowersonthepiano · 04/04/2018 17:11

I respect your concerns, but they are uneducated concerns.

They aren't. I find your remarks patronising. Which of the concerns I have do you think I need educating about?

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 17:13

I’m not talking about metoidioplasty. Phalloplasty still has many different types. There’s the pump, the rod (many types of rods actually) etc. It’s not just the standard everyone thinks

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 17:16

I apologise if you found them patronising, that was not my intent. What I mean is that the biggest concern here is about men exploiting transgender people by faking and abusing. But in reality that hardly ever happens. In fact you’d have more chance of being struck by lightning or being involved in a plane crash. That doesn’t stop people getting on plans or traveling in a thunder storm. Neither should it stop trans people using a bathroom that matches their identity

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 17:19

Phalloplasty still has many different types. There’s the pump, the rod (many types of rods actually) etc.

My misunderstanding sorry. I had thought you were talking about an erection without using artificial means.

Springtrolls · 04/04/2018 17:20

I have seen trans penis. I could tell.
If you just took a quick look then perhaps you wouldn't tell.
However, if you start to have a feel you can tell even with the none inflatable penis.

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 17:21

The rod is not very obvious at all. Like I said, my friend has one of the rods and no one he has slept with has ever been able to tell

hackmum · 04/04/2018 17:29

Presumably, Sawyer99, you'd be happy to have sex with a transman?

TERFragetteCity · 04/04/2018 17:33

The rod is not very obvious at all. Like I said, my friend has one of the rods and no one he has slept with has ever been able to tell

I do find this quite distasteful...this is surely lying to your partners? How can you trust each other when the very basis of the relationship is based on a lie?

This is what I find weird about the whole shouting transphobe thing. It doesn't enable an adult discussion taking into consideration all aspects of safeguarding of everyone into account. Steaming around screaming BIGOT at people, might make TRAs feel better, but it doesn't safeguard anyone.

ygrec · 04/04/2018 17:33

sawyer, do you watch a lot of anime by any chance?

titchy · 04/04/2018 17:36

But in reality that hardly ever happens. In fact you’d have more chance of being struck by lightning or being involved in a plane crash.

That's really not true though. I know the TRA movement keeps saying that, but really they are wrong. There are numerous examples of men accessing female spaces to abuse, wank, intimidate etc. No one here, at WPUK, at Transgender trend has any worries about genuine transsexuals. Honestly. Please believe that. But we are massively worried about females being safe.

rowdywoman1 · 04/04/2018 17:39

Sawyer99
As you're training to be a teacher, could you comment on how you would safeguard children if you are also telling them that they have no right to establish boundaries in relation to personal privacy and have no right to consent in relation to undressing in front of the opposite sex?

If we silence children about their expectations of privacy and dignity, won't it make this situation worse?

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/12/sexual-harassment-rife-in-schools-but-largely-unreported-study-says

qumquat · 04/04/2018 17:39

I'm so pleased! She's a prominent campaigner against sexism in schools, as well as being gender critical. I've met her at a few feminism in schools events and she is very impressive.

FloraFox · 04/04/2018 17:45

The rod is not very obvious at all. Like I said, my friend has one of the rods and no one he has slept with has ever been able to tell

If this is true, your friend has been having a very limited set of sexual experiences designed to hide the fact she does not have a functioning penis. Lights on or naked massage would reveal the truth immediately. It’s illegal in a number of places to mislead someone into having sex with a partner not of the sex they really are. What about their partner’s right to define their sexuality?

noeffingidea · 04/04/2018 17:45

no one he has slept with has ever been able to tell
Were their partners blindfolded or doing it in the dark, or just sexually inexperienced or something?
Also, didn't they notice the mastectomy scars? I can't imagine having sex with a person and not being complely familiar with every inch of their body.

MonsterSister · 04/04/2018 17:46

Can we get off the inflatable willy chat for a bit, and get back to the topic of safeguarding children?

I would worry, Sawyer, that you are understandably very biased to one side on this subject. It would be surprising if you weren't. There are times when, in a school setting, that might mean a considerable conflict of interest.

Girls who wish to change out of the presence of boys, and vice versa, should be able to do so. A male child's inner identity makes no difference to the privacy of those girls.

Girls should be allowed to compete at sports without having to compete against boys. A male child's inner identity makes no difference to their physical stature, lung capacity or pelvic structure.

Girls should be allowed to discuss periods, pregnancy etc without having to consider whether they are 'excluding' boys. A male child's inner identity makes no difference to their ability to menstruate.

By all means carry on smashing the gender barriers in situations where everyone has all their clothes on and physical strength is not an issue.

MonsterSister · 04/04/2018 17:48

(Sorry, Flora, Noeffing - that wasn't directed at your posts - I just type slowly.)

Springtrolls · 04/04/2018 17:58

And boys should be able to talk about wet dreams, pre-cum, and wank socks without considering they are sharing these talks with someone who cannot relate.
People can deny it all they want, but there are differences between the sexes regardless of how they feel internally. Both sexes go through different things during childhood, puberty and beyond. They should be free to discuss these situations freely in groups where they feel comfortable without being silenced because they are excluding others. Like it or not, there will always be some situations where the other sex is excluded.