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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Kiri Tunks

169 replies

GenderApostate · 31/03/2018 10:11

Kiri has been voted in as President of the NUT, she is openly gender critical and a supporter of A Womans Place UK. I think this shows that teachers are not as in thrall to the TRAs as said groups think.

If only we had someone in the Government Education department who was so sensible and protective of the rights of Women and Children.
Small victories will get us there in the end.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 04/04/2018 16:07

Sawyer - have you come across the "Let Toys Be Toys" campaign? Link here

Essentially it lobbies for an end to "girls toys" and "boys toys", helping to eliminate gender bias from an early age. The kind of stuff that you say you want to see in your classroom

You might be amazed to learn that it is feminists who are behind it, not trans advocates

hackmum · 04/04/2018 16:07

And this is why a lot of genuine trans people are worried about self-ID - if anyone can claim to be the opposite sex, then it undermines what it means to be a transwoman or transman.

WiggyPig · 04/04/2018 16:08

@Sawyer99 I went to one of the WPUK meetings, with some misgivings because I'd heard that they were at best a pretend-civilised front for transphobia and at worst an outright hate group. They absolutely weren't. The speakers I heard didn't say that trans women shouldn't be in women's spaces. They were broadly in favour of the status quo, and expressed reservations that the ever widening trans umbrella meant that people who do not live full-time as women are now able to call themselves women without challenge and access women's spaces and programmes designed to help redress the sex imbalance. Three trans women spoke at the end in support of this contention - one I think is actually a teacher herself.

It couldn't have been much further from an "anti trans hate group" and it's seriously worrying that women expressing an opinion, even an unpopular opinion, are attacked like this.

titchy · 04/04/2018 16:23

Sawyer if you do just one thing can you look at what Wpuk actually propose and at the transgender trend guidance, then make your own mind up.

I strongly suspect you've just read other people's opinions about this on Twitter, and as a trans person yourself have automatically reacted with outrage, rather than find out for yourself what these organisations say. THEY ARE NOT ANTI-TRANS AT ALL.

(Incidentally you asked about how the trans ideology was anti-gay - it's because most teenage trans are female but they sadly seem to find more acceptance and encouragement as trans boys rather than lesbians - it's that anti-gay stuff we want to eradicate that the trans movement wants to encourage.)

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:27

@titchy I was a girl who was raped multiple times. But I understand that a tran woman is not Male so the student wouldn’t be sharing with a man, they’d be sharing with another woman

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 16:29

Ok first of all I struggle to see how being transgender is homophobic. I’m gay. So by your understanding I’m homophobic towards myself and others?

Gay / homosexual = attraction to the opposite sex (not gender)

Homosexual females are attracted to other females.

Homosexual males are attracted to males.

A gay TIM would be attracted to males.

A gay TIF would be attracted to females.

A transwoman attracted to women is a heterosexual male.

A transman attracted to men is a heterosexual female.

The homophobia occurs when people say that a lesbian is transphobic if they would not have sex with a transwoman.

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:29

Also I don’t know where you’ve got your “statistics” from but they’re wrong. Over the years I have met hundreds and hundreds of trans individuals. Most of them were not ‘females struggling to find acceptance as a lesbian’. In fact the majority of them were gay. I myself am ftm attracted to men

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 16:30

And what titchy said^ "transing away the gay" is becoming increasingly popular

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 16:31

I myself am ftm attracted to men

Which makes you heterosexual not gay Hmm

beenandgoneandbackagain · 04/04/2018 16:31

Can you understand that many rape victims might feel otherwise? Especially if the transwoman still has their male genitalia as many transwomen do?

I personally have no problem sharing a changing room with anyone, male, female, trans, whatever. However, I have enough empathy to understand that other women may not feel the same way, and especially that vulnerable women, or women who have been subjected to male violence, would have issues being vulnerable in the presence of a transwoman with a functioning penis.

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:32

But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals. They’re basically saying they’re not a woman

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:33

@itsallgoingtobefine

How does that make me heterosexual I’m a trans MAN attracted to MEN. manXman is gay

SarahCarer · 04/04/2018 16:34

@sawyer99 you will find the gender critical feminists on here are absolutely supportive of your plan to de-gender the classroom in the main part. We want to de-gender the world! Which will make the whole concept of transgenderism null and void. We believe binary ideas about gender are oppressive. Sex, however, is binary and the difference between male and female bodies will always mean that girls need protection from boys. Hopefully if we can widen the boundaries of masculinity boys will become less of a threat to girls but the threat will never be completely removed.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 16:35

But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals

Sexuality is about sex not gender.

How does that make me heterosexual I’m a trans MAN attracted to MEN. manXman is gay

Your sex is female. Female X male = heterosexual

beenandgoneandbackagain · 04/04/2018 16:37

"But if gender is not defined by genitals then it IS transphobic for a lesbian to not want to date a trans woman just because of her genitals. They’re basically saying they’re not a woman"

SEX is defined by genitals. A lesbian is attracted to natal women. She is not heteroSEXual, she is homoSEXual. So a lesbian woman is sexually attracted to other women. A transwoman's sex is male regardless of dangly bits or otherwise. To say that a lesbian woman should not be sexually unattracted to a transwoman with a penis/beard/male pointers is wrong.

Can I declare myself male tomorrow and insist that all my lovely handsome gay friends must suddenly start finding me sexually attractive or they're transphobic?

I am so far down this rabbit hole. . . . . . . . . . . .

MonsterSister · 04/04/2018 16:37

Sawyer, I don't understand. You say 'at school I wasn't allowed to use any toilets' - you can't mean that, surely? Did you have to use those of your birth sex, do you mean? I can see that that would be distressing, but if you're a trainee teacher, you know it can't all be about one single child; proportionate response is the key, and putting one child of the opposite sex in there means that every other child has lost their access to a single-sex facility. Or did they point you at the staff loos?

LangCleg · 04/04/2018 16:40

I myself am ftm attracted to men

That means you are heterosexual.

How old are you, Sawyer, if you don't mind my asking?

MonsterSister · 04/04/2018 16:40

I've just read your update. You poor kid.

I'll bugger off and spare you my thoughts on the daft 'TW are W' mantra.

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:41

Clearly no one is really listening here. No one said a lesbian HAS to be sexually attracted to a trans woman. No one said if you transition to Male that your gay friends would HAVE to find you attractive. But if your genitals was the ONLY factor that they didn’t find attractive, that is transphobic. So for instance if no one knew I was trans and they assumed I was bio Male and they were attracted to me for a number of reasons, then when I revealed my trans status they said oh I don’t like that or oh I’m not attracted to you anymore, that is transphobic. Because up until 2 seconds ago they were attracted to me, now they’re saying my genitals mean I am not a man. That is transphobic

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:43

No I literally wasn’t allowed to use any toilets. Not the female ones, not the male ones and not the staff ones. I had to wait until home

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:43

I’m 19... but I don’t see what that has to do with this?

titchy · 04/04/2018 16:43

But I understand that a tran woman is not Male so the student wouldn’t be sharing with a man, they’d be sharing with another woman

Male and female are definitions of sex not gender. A transwomen is biologically male. They will probably have male genitalia, and if under the age of 20 will still be legally male.

It is MASSIVELY unfair of you to insist otherwise to teenage girls and vulnerable female adults, and to force them to accept being uncomfortable and vulnerable to assault. Remember selfid means Dave the plumber can say he's a women for 10 mins then happily to back to plumbing with the lads.

titchy · 04/04/2018 16:44

No I literally wasn’t allowed to use any toilets. Not the female ones, not the male ones and not the staff ones. I had to wait until home

I'm sorry that must have been shit.Thanks

Sawyer99 · 04/04/2018 16:45

What is this under the age of 20, still legally male thing you speak of? I’m under 20 and I’m legally Male now

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2018 16:45

Because up until 2 seconds ago they were attracted to me, now they’re saying my genitals mean I am not a man. That is transphobic

It's really really not. Sex and sexuality kind of is about genitals. As a heterosexual female I have no interest in sleeping with a female, or a female with a facsimile of a penis. I kind of like sex with a real penis. If I mistook a TIF for a man then yes the genitals would be a deal breaker.