Being wary of men because of your experience of male violence

[GoldenWonderwall]

I’ve namechanged for this as I usually post shite. Anyway...

I’ve been a victim of male sexual violence and violence on so many occasions. From being a little girl to a grown professional woman. Violence from strangers, partners, friends and colleagues. The only thing this lot had in common besides their criminality is that they are all men that I’ve had the misfortune to be in the vicinity of. I’m rarely around men I don’t trust now especially if I feel in any way vulnerable.

If you met me you might you might not believe someone as outwardly privileged and generally quite average as me had been through the experiences I have had. I’d be one of those white middle class feminists who needs to check my privilege.

So when people say namalt and you shouldn’t tar all men with the same brush, you shouldn’t be afraid of men etc which seems to happen so regularly on any discussion regarding male violence, at what point can those people say, oh well actually I can see where you’re coming from? You have a point? Your lived experience has numerous examples of sexual and sex based violence towards you from men and I take that on board? I recognise your experience and I’m not going to dismiss it with a namalt or glibly suggest you get counselling for your issues.

I’m ok that I’m wary of men in general because of my experiences. I’m ok if other women are wary of men too, who would I be to judge.

Does anyone understand what I’m trying to say? I’m sure someone more thoughtful could sum it up in a sentence!

for anyone effected by my post.

I suppose my feeling is not NAMALT (because obviously that's true and it doesn't change the fact that men are far more violent than women) but that to make a real cultural change requires the work of both sexes. It'll take ages too. We need every hand we can get.

Women alone cannot change how society operates. There are men who loathe violence and sex crimes too.

I guess prawn I wasn’t posing a problem to solve (being wary of men in general because of your experience of male violence) as if you do see that as a problem, it would be my problem for me to solve (change my thinking, have counselling, consider men’s feelings above my own). I have no desire to work with men in general to change my wariness to something else. It would be very dangerous psychologically for me I think to put myself in situations wariness would prohibit to prove the point that namalt. I’ve done it before and I don’t want to do that again.

Perhaps if women actively avoid all men that are even vaguely ‘like that’ then the ones that can be swayed will emulate the genuine good guys who are getting the girls and the ones that can’t will be obvious outliers that are visible and avoidable to all. If women get involved trying to change these men, I just see more of the same and more female labour being expended to appease and defend arseholes. Men need to step up really and there’s no real incentive to do that at the moment.

My experience is that sadly a lot of misogyny comes from women, who cut each other down. Of course women hardly ever represent any kind of physical threat (unless you're a child at risk of FGM) so we aren't wary of them in the same way, but it's true that rape myths are propagated by women against other women. In terms of what you might call reputational damage and sexism women have harmed me considerably.

I suppose that, unlike some of the other women on this board, who have had almost exclusively bad experiences with men, I've had very positive relationships with men who hate male dominance and violence so I see things somewhat differently. I feel this sort of man deserves encouragement because I don't believe women can achieve liberation without the support of at least a proportion of men and I'm sure this is achievable.

If women's liberation is seen as women against all men then we will fail. We need at least some men to reject the patriarchy and its works.

Oh ok then. Dismiss what I’m saying because I’ve had the misfortune to meet some utter arseholes in my life whereas you, who have met less, have a more rounded and less emotional experience on which to draw which is more relevant? I refer you to your first point regarding women and misogyny.

I really feel you’ve missed my point of my initial post and the point that I think a lot of posters were responding to (without feeling the need to namalt and women do it too).

I was horrendously bullied by two women but I have to say their impact on me was minimal. It's strange - I think that I could forgive them because I kind of understood WHY they were doing this. They thought by pulling me down they would receive more scraps from the master's table. Plus the power imbalance between us wasn't huge.

But when I was bullied by three men...I was scarred for life. I NEVER forgave and never will. For three men to gang up against one woman was just evil.

I'm one of the lucky ones who's never experienced male violence. As a result, I'm not generally wary of men. That does not in any way mean that I don't understand why many women are though. Responding 'NAMALT' to someone who's had your experiences would be stupid, insensitive, cruel and naive.

Sorry, GoldenWonderwall, I think we're at cross purposes here. I'm not intending any sort of attack on you. Please accept my apologies if that's the impression you have.

I too have had widespread experience of male violence. I've been raped twice and another man forced me to give him a bj when I was underage. I've been beaten up too. I don't underestimate male violence.

However I was lucky enough to grow up with a DF who was very keen on women's rights. He's over 80 now. He brought up my DBs with the same assumptions and I wouldn't have married a man who didn't consider women his equals in every way.

And my observation is that all of the rights movements - civil rights, the Suffragettes, BLM - have benefited from the endorsement of members of the oppressor class. If women's liberation is "us against them" every step of the way, it'll take a lot longer.

I know there are men who support women's liberation and I feel we should acknowledge/work with them.

I am not talking about the sort of 'woke' idiots who call themselves feminists to pull or just impress women. The sort of men I'm thinking of would likely never describe themselves as feminists. They just see themselves as decent blokes.

I don't consider myself to have experienced 'real' male violence. Nevertheless I have still:
Been kerbcrawled on any number of occasions. (The first time it happened I was wearing my school uniform.)
Been groped between the legs while in a crush at a bar and unable to move.
Been grabbed on a busy street in broad daylight and felt up. (Lots of people around - no-one came to help.)
Been followed down a busy road by a group of leering, catcalling men. (Again no-one helped me.)
Had a man hide in the garden to spy on us (student female flats).
Had a man masturbating in the seat next to me at the cinema.
Been groped on the tube so many times I've lost count.

I've known some women whom I've disliked intensely but none of them have ever done anything remotely like that to me. I did once see two women fighting - over 40 years ago and I've never forgotten it, which I think shows how rare it is in my experience.

I have great relationships with some men and I love them dearly. I still don't think they get it. They have some insight into the violence, because they have to be wary of it themselves, but not about all the so-called 'low grade' everyday banal stuff. They have no idea how much it wears you down, none whatsoever.

I think that the 'us against them' narrative is driven by men...The same knuckle draggers who call feminists man haters and who have been instrumental in making girls and women afraid to call themselves feminist.

So often feminists have asked that men do more, listen more...only to be let down again and again.

prawn and to everyone who has experienced sexual or sex based violence.

The original point wasn’t women v men - it was about contemplating the possibility that a woman’s lived experience of violence from men could be accepted as evidence enough that she has a right to be wary of men without further justification or mealy mouthed namalt skirting round the edges. To say it as it is feels bold to me. It makes people feel uncomfortable. It seems in your face and divisive perhaps, whereas from a logical perspective, it is clearly the safest course of action for the average woman.

I have, believe it or not, some good men in my life. I’m happy with that. New men are met courteously but with wariness and I’m in no hurry to get past chatting about the weather and I do not want to be alone with any of them. Social conventions such as workplace relations, marriage, legal ages of consent etc etc mean nothing to the horrible individuals I’ve met in the past, the only way to keep yourself safe imho is to not be there with them in the first place. Perhaps some lovely men are missing out on my sparkling company but I’m sure they’ll get over it

I’m a nice person, even when no one is actively telling me how wonderful I am. I’m a nice person, even when no one is watching. I’d hope the namalt men are the same and don’t require cheerleading to not be like that. I’m not a cheerleader of men, I’m a person in my own right. It’s good that people have different perspectives as obviously if someone did have the solution, we wouldn’t need to be talking about it.