Being wary of men because of your experience of male violence

[GoldenWonderwall]

I’ve namechanged for this as I usually post shite. Anyway...

I’ve been a victim of male sexual violence and violence on so many occasions. From being a little girl to a grown professional woman. Violence from strangers, partners, friends and colleagues. The only thing this lot had in common besides their criminality is that they are all men that I’ve had the misfortune to be in the vicinity of. I’m rarely around men I don’t trust now especially if I feel in any way vulnerable.

If you met me you might you might not believe someone as outwardly privileged and generally quite average as me had been through the experiences I have had. I’d be one of those white middle class feminists who needs to check my privilege.

So when people say namalt and you shouldn’t tar all men with the same brush, you shouldn’t be afraid of men etc which seems to happen so regularly on any discussion regarding male violence, at what point can those people say, oh well actually I can see where you’re coming from? You have a point? Your lived experience has numerous examples of sexual and sex based violence towards you from men and I take that on board? I recognise your experience and I’m not going to dismiss it with a namalt or glibly suggest you get counselling for your issues.

I’m ok that I’m wary of men in general because of my experiences. I’m ok if other women are wary of men too, who would I be to judge.

Does anyone understand what I’m trying to say? I’m sure someone more thoughtful could sum it up in a sentence!

for anyone effected by my post.

Trouble is it’s all part of wider social misogyny.

Men don’t get told how to live their lives in the same way. People might scoff at preppers, but they aren’t personally offended by them. They don’t get all indignant and ‘how DARE they’. Because some preppers are men. Therefore they can live their life how they choose. Even though preppers have a fear many deem irrational (and it’s certainly more irrational than a woman being wary of men) no one takes that fear personally.

But when a behaviour is specific to women, then there’s not just opinion but also this affront over what they think and do. Being afraid of men is AWFUL FOR THE MEN WON’T YOU THINK OF THE MEN.

See also pregnancy, abortion, birth. All areas where people feel they have a right to not just an opinion about how they would do it but be listened to and obeyed.

Also it’s reported far and wide how terrible it is to report, how horrible the police are, how picky the cps are, how inquisitorial the court is, how juries won’t believe you, how your rapist will walk away with their head held high whilst you’re in the paper with people baying for your head on a spike. You wouldn’t put your worst enemy through that - why do it to yourself?

Exactly - this is what I mean.

It's worse to be accused of rape - than it is to be raped.

You can't accuse a man of rape - you'll ruin his life.

I mean, yes, rape ruins women's lives, but it doesn't matter, they'll get over it.

You can't go around destroying a man's life / reputation, though!

So ... our culture makes it as difficult for women as possible. Women are not credible. We lie. We're emotional. We're vindictive.

And men are assured of getting away with it - by a legal system ('innocent until proven guilty', 'beyond reasonable doubt') that works brilliantly for all crimes - but terribly for one crime in particular. Rape.

The system could not be more stacked against us.

And it's when you consider all these points, that you realise why MRAs loathe feminists and see us as a total threat.

They know what true equality for men and women means.

Women are not credible. We lie. We're emotional. We're vindictive.

To be clear, it's patently MEN that are routinely all these things.

It’s like being stuck in a slightly transparent, sound proofed room. Everyone can see a bit so they know there’s something but they don’t want to hear as well, not really, because then they might start to understand and then so much will come crashing down.

So we make sure women are too afraid to speak about the violence. And then people can be completely blasé about what’s actually happening so feel justified in waving away any rights women have to women only spaces cos it’s not like the bogeyman Jimmy Saville or Harvey Weinstein is going to be knocking down the flap in the Top Shop changing room is it? So frustrating. I’ve been assaulted by several men in the caring professions, the sharks hide in plain sight ime.

What really infuriates me is when incidents are being reported in the media and press, for example the Rotherham grooming sex ring, or talking about rape statistics or Catholic priests abusing children........the perpetrators are refered to as 'the people involved rather than' the MEN involved' as it is always men!

It as though all reporters and comentators are afraid to say men, why is this?

they get you when you’re young, too young to truly understand what is happening to you and you are scared you’ll get into trouble as well.

Yup, my friend’s dad who took me down a quiet country lane when he was supposed to be driving my 11 year old self home, then kept asking me to sit on his lap in the car, told me that my parents would be cross with me for driving underage if I told them. Pervy bastard. He then ended up working as security in a place I worked at aged 22 and apparently used my ID photo as a screensaver.

I was assaulted by a sports instructor when I was 10. I wasn't alone, he was quite open about it in front of the kids (all around 9-14yrs of age).

He talked about the older girls' boobs and how careful he had to be demonstrating the activity with them so that he didn't hurt them.

He used to demonstrate on the younger girls and kiss us on the lips when his full weight was on us and we couldn't move.

He used to pinch and smack us on the bottom/thighs when we were doing the activity with each other and couldn't get away.

I told my mother one day. She was so cross with me for saying such things. I wasn't allowed to mention it again.

It wasn't until another girl's mum called mine, because her daughter had told her the same after she'd asked about bruises on her bum, that I was allowed to stop going.

I realised then both because of what had happened and my mother's reaction that I didn't really matter very much.

I escaped a rape attempt when I was 17 - didn't tell my mother until I had a panic attack and couldn't leave the house 6 months later. I told her and she, again, was cross and said it had been my own fault for going out with my friend in the evening.

When I was raped 4 years later, I didn't tell anyone.

My dad hit me growing up. I dumped the few boys who didn't because I'd been fed the "I only hit you because I love you" narratives so many times that I just accepted it and genuinely thought that if someone didn't hit me it was because they didn't care enough.

I know that other girls/women have experienced so much worse that I feel a bit ridiculous for even mentioning this. I see what happened to me (the stuff I've detailed and the endless, ongoing catalogue of things I haven't) as being 'normal' and everyday. I don't know anyone who doesn't have a similar/worse tale to tell.

It wasn't until I discovered MN in my 30s that I really 'got' that men don't hit you because they love you and that it's actually ok to say "no" to a date/to sex/to men...

I'm not scared of men but I am wary and I make no apology for that.

If men try getting all namalt-y with me I tell them to take it up with all the men who are like that and not the women who are trying to protect ourselves against them.

Why is it always our responsibility?

Our responsibility to make sure we're not attacked.
Our responsibility to make sure men don't feel bad that we're wary.
Our responsibility when we fail at both of those...

(Obvs rules of misogyny, I know that...)

golden that's very similar to my story
I'm quite damaged I think.

Me too, Quentin. Me too

@TheGoldenBough I’m sorry that happened to you and that your mum was so unsupportive.

for all the posters who have experienced abuse at the hands of men.

I am having counselling at the moment. I am suffering from ptsd. We were talking yesterday about times I have been at real physical threat and I thought about it more after. I have been at threat a few times in my life, all from men. Abuse as a child, witnessing male violence as a child, and being raped and assaulted as a young adult. I am starting to understand the physical reactions my body is experiencing now are some kind of delayed reaction to the violence and abuse I experienced years ago and that it was all at the hands of men. I am not scared of men.. I have male friends, a male partner, a brother...but I am scared of being alone with some men in certain situations. Like walking in a secluded area if a man is behind me I will feel scared, and I know it isn't that man's fault and he probably won't do anything, but my gut reaction is one of fear. My first couple of lessons with a male driving instructor, as soon as he started driving us to a quiet road to practice in my heart started to pound and I wanted to get out of the car. I didn't express that fear to him and I tried to ignore it but I couldn't stop it taking over my body. I think it is a rational response but it's difficult to express that without sounding like I'm demonising an entire group of people.

My daughter enrolled on a self defence course. She was about 10 at the time. I happily brought her there and back for two lessons. She decided to no longer go.

The instructor, male, arrived at the door after I had respectfully called to say that she would no longer be attending and that I didn't require a refund.

He was most adamant that she should attend the course, he was with one of his children at this time. I listened and nodded. But said that I went with my child's decision to not go back. I did ask her again if anything untoward took place and she said no, but that she didn't feel safe. That was enough for me.

Always believe your child.

Yes elendon
I pulled my daughter out of something np questions asked, because she was worried about a man there. I found it very hard not to make her justify why she was worried or downplay it. But we need to teach our daughters that their instincts are to be trusted. And to do that we need to show them that we value their instincts.

I want to help build my daughter a much better shark cage than my own

Elendon, that's interesting and it might not just be about the aggressive git running the class

I didn't want to go to that kind of thing as a child because it looked scary. If you are scared of violence and rough and tumble generally - which I was, I think it's just innate - then joining that seems even more scary.

as an adult it was somehow easier to say "I need to learn how to kick the crap out of someone defend myself" - possibly because by teenage years, anger had taken over from fear!

depressing isn't it. Sorry.

Quentin - yes, anyone making you feel uncomfortable, the "why" doesn't matter. There was a man in my workplace who set my spidey senses off to the point that I would physically step back two steps when he approached me. After the last Christmas lunch, he went round enthusiastically hugging and kissing all the women, but when he came to me, he put his hand out for a handshake.

Yes, I have come to the point where I just really don't even like men any more. I have a husband but I love him despite the fact he is a man lol. His man tendencies are ones that I work around. Because of course at the end of the day he is just a person in a male body. He is the least maleist male I know, which is maybe why I fell in love with him 8 years ago.
My experiences with sexual violence, cohersion, male privelage etc. just mean I have had enough of men. I keep them all at arms distance, including my own father. They are not a source of security for me and never will be. My eyes have finally opened to why they are dangerous and oppressive individuals even if they don't mean to be. I now know why my mother was afraid of them too. I wish I believed her instead of having to go through what I did before seeing the truth.

GoldenWonderwall
Sorry to hear of your bad experiences you are right to wary and distrustful of men, Even to this day I'm still wary of men and don't like them being behind me, I can see where you are coming from and fully get what you are saying.

I'm "lucky" in that my negative experiences are the kind of mild ones that women put up with every single chuffing day of our lives. The kinds of things that we all don't even bother mentioning. What's the point? But I'm still wary. I am never unaware of who else is around me, of where the nearest lit house is if I'm alone, walking after dark. I walk in the centre of the road, if need be. I lock the car doors when I'm driving alone. I do a 360 degree scan before I get in, or out of the car. I do a 360 degree scan before I open my front door when I get home. I only every wear trousers, and flat shoes. I make sure I can run, if I have to. I plan ahead, I leave notes saying exactly where I'm going and what time I ought to be back. I visit clients at home, and I make sure I have email addresses, phone numbers and a physical address for them before I go, and I leave it on my desk so my husband can find out who killed me and dumped my body. I work with women, other women, and yet I feel the need to make sure I leave a trail just in case one of these days, it's not a woman that I'm visiting at home.

My husband makes sure he takes at least a tenner, his phone and his keys. That's his preparation to see a client in their home.

I've suffered from male violence and rape but I also have absolutely lovely male friends and relatives. I'm sure of the men I know but I've always been fairly cautious about men I'm not sure of - all my life until recently.

I very much enjoy being older - late into middle age - because men no longer pester me when I'm alone in public. I recently had to wait for a friend who'd been delayed for about 40 minutes right in the middle of London. I sat on a bench by a fountain in the warm evening and no one hassled me. It was lovely.

Thank you starting this thread Golden I’ve been “lucky” enough to have only been subjected to low grade sexual abuse and harrseement, but i feel very vulnerable a lot of the time and my poor early twenties DD has suffered an horrific sexual assault which has been heartbreaking for her and for us to watch her going through this.

I think this is why I am so against Self Id (sorry to bring this up). I believe that if women were not afraid of men(with very good reason) we wouldn’t care very much about sharing spaces. It is the real fear of assault which drives many women in this area and I want men to understand that.

My ex husband used to stop me going out with work colleagues because he "didn't trust" the way the men might act with me. he would point out how men were predatory and not to be trusted.

Then when I began to agree with him and talked about some of my feminist principles he stated that I obviously "hate" all men.

Men just want to control women and will even use their own reputation to do so. But fight back and all hell breaks loose. They totally agree that men are dangerous, yet they don't want us to fight against that. It's the basis of their privilege.

There are many women here stating that they have only experienced "low grade" sexual or violent abuse or that they only suffer harassment.
While I agree there are some abuses that will always be the worst and we all fear them the most.

But don't downgrade your own experiences. The cumulative effect is often very very damaging. the small actions of men against us can total a huge effect. Also one small event, can, for some women, trigger something much deeper.

All abuse is abuse and wrong.

It isn't all men but if I think about my close friends, we have all experienced some abuse at some time, from rape, childhood abuse, domestic violence, attempted rape, violent father. That's just in my closest 5 friends and we are normal middle class women in professional jobs. I imagine you can extrapolate from that and assume the it may not be all men but most women have experienced abuse at some time. It's no bloody wonder we are wary.
On the other hand I know some complete gentlemen who have looked after me when i've been absolutely shitfaced. I've can name quite a few that have called out other men on the their behaviour including one who ensured the abuser lost his job. I know they are doing what they should but I think NAMALT can be unhelpful and perhaps we should be encouraging men to stand up and call out the abusers .

I posted about this a while ago but I am, sort of, the opposite. I am so used to men being aggressive it doesn't phase me. I expect it. In my job people often get angry at me, I am much more fearful when it is a woman. It's because I am used to men trying to physically intimidate me, it's all a bit same old same old.

That isn't to say I don't think it's as bad when it's a man it's more my brain goes into "oh this shit" mode rather than fear mode. When it's a woman it's more unexpected and unpredictable.

I want to, again, emphasise that I am not saying aggressive women are worse than aggressive men. Quite the opposite.

Miffer - I think maybe the reason you are more wary of women is because it is so unexpected that you assume she must be unhinged in some way - drunk, on drugs, mentally unstable and therefore more dangerous.

I agree that I also expect men to be aggressive and I am never surprised when they are. But I feel I can meet an angry women on my own level and talk reasonably with her. With a man I just get as far away as possible as soon as possible.

I think it's important to encourage the men who do go out on a limb, who are aware.

My DH spent most of his working life in the music industry. Plenty of female artists, but the industry is overwhelmingly male even now. Back in the day when he was involved it was hugely sexist, with women judged on their appearance even more than today and he was very aware of how so many men spoke about women on tour buses etc. It made him very fierce about keeping an eye out for women's interests and I know my DSD very much appreciated having him at her back. She introduced all her boyfriends to him "so they know I've got a large protective dad."

He did all sorts of things over the years to reduce the risk to women - like stopping in a lay by and staying at a safe distance while speaking reassuringly to her until the police arrived when a woman broke down late at night. Male predation enraged him. It was one of the reasons I loved him