Being wary of men because of your experience of male violence

[GoldenWonderwall]

I’ve namechanged for this as I usually post shite. Anyway...

I’ve been a victim of male sexual violence and violence on so many occasions. From being a little girl to a grown professional woman. Violence from strangers, partners, friends and colleagues. The only thing this lot had in common besides their criminality is that they are all men that I’ve had the misfortune to be in the vicinity of. I’m rarely around men I don’t trust now especially if I feel in any way vulnerable.

If you met me you might you might not believe someone as outwardly privileged and generally quite average as me had been through the experiences I have had. I’d be one of those white middle class feminists who needs to check my privilege.

So when people say namalt and you shouldn’t tar all men with the same brush, you shouldn’t be afraid of men etc which seems to happen so regularly on any discussion regarding male violence, at what point can those people say, oh well actually I can see where you’re coming from? You have a point? Your lived experience has numerous examples of sexual and sex based violence towards you from men and I take that on board? I recognise your experience and I’m not going to dismiss it with a namalt or glibly suggest you get counselling for your issues.

I’m ok that I’m wary of men in general because of my experiences. I’m ok if other women are wary of men too, who would I be to judge.

Does anyone understand what I’m trying to say? I’m sure someone more thoughtful could sum it up in a sentence!

for anyone effected by my post.

How can they even have the balls to minimise it, when they themselves, if their girlfriend or daughter were going out for the night, would be giving them all the advice - the advice we've been given all our lives, that clearly frames us a prey!

Being wary of men as the result of past male violence or aggression isn't unreasonable, selfish, or whatever other nonsense the person currently trying to shame you into shutting up and abandoning your boundaries is trying to push on you. It's basic pattern recognition. All women know that male predators exist, and all take precautions of some kind to avoid them. What the precautions are can vary a lot, but they're there.

This is the best piece of writing I've ever seen about male violence, particularly sexual violence, and how women deal with the constant threat of it. If you have time read the comments - not only are you not alone, or even unusual, you're the norm, and the "not all men!" people are drowning in cognitive dissonance. NAMALT-ing is a coping mechanism in that case, and not a particularly healthy one. Eyes wide open awareness is smarter and less emotionally taxing.

kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

Good post OP.

I remember that thread The Dowager

Yes to being prey and being wary and I have a few good male friends and a much loved son.

WhereYouLeftIt at 23.09 posted a link to the concept of the Shark Cage. What a brilliant article. I urge you all to read it.

Thank you It took me over an hour to word it, it’s hard to put it into words.

I’ve had loads of therapy and I’m ok with myself - if something else happened I don’t know. I’m wary of people pushing at my boundaries and telling me I’m silly to be scared. There’s enough threads about it so I’m not making this another one but I’m afraid of men in intimate settings - I’m one of those women who argue against men on the postnatal ward overnight for example.

I’m very concerned for my dc as I’ve worked with a disproportionate number of abusers in the education sector and I’ve done lots of safeguarding around online predators. When people snigger about a pedophile on every corner, I’m again, thinking, well actually you’d be horrified if you properly consider the risk. But then I was nearly abducted as a child so it’s personal experience. Plus when you talk about it, so many people have those experiences.

I don’t generally talk about it online as usually you get dismissed as people don’t really want to think about it or don’t want to think about it as it will spoil their intellectual, logical argument. Thank you

Great thread. I think it’s important that we speak about our experiences with this. And yes, it’s all women. I’ve had threats of violence, violence, emotional and sexual abuse in my life. And I’m very wary of men. I take all of the precautions mentioned here by other women. Half the time we don’t even realise we are doing this stuff, but it all takes mental energy we could be better putting to use elsewhere if we didn’t have to live with this. We are right to be scared though - the danger is very real.

Yes another thanks for posting the article about the Shark Cage. Very good.

Yes a great post op. And for me the worst thing is having to open my own daughters eyes to it. How? When? How do you do so without ruining their beautiful innocence. My dd1 moved to London for uni from our rural village where she was fairly sheltered. I have to try not to panic about the dangers she faces whilst simultaneously arming her with enough savvy to keep herself as safe as she can. To an extent I have to let her get on with it and I feel powerless. By far the toughest part of parenthood for me personally so far.

The shark cage has really disturbed me.
This bit
"I let women know that by always putting
others’ needs and feelings before their
own they have been behaving in a
‘selfless’ way. Over time this means
they become disconnected from their
own wants, needs, and feelings with
the result that they feel they don’t
know who they are. They become
‘self–less”, and this feeling is often
associated with depression."
Really resonates

Everything everyone says I agree with so much. I have learned to shut down any interest in listening to men or talking to them as I go about my day. I don't want to have anything to do with them except in a professional capacity. I have zero interest. But women - I am drawn to them and interested in their lives and their experiences.

dowager I am lucky enough to be in the same boat as you, but like the OP I can't understand how any woman isn't wary of men. We all do it - avoid dark places, avoid being alone with strange men, avoid unmarked taxis - why wouldn't we? That risk is there, whether we like it or not.

There's a line in the book The Power where the female politician who has just figured out how to make her power work (so she can electrocute people with just her fingertips, for anyone who hasn't read it), when she's in a meeting with a man who usually talks over her etc, when she finally just calls him on his bullshit and ends the meeting. And it ends with a line something like "she'd never spoken to him like that before, but now she knew that if she wanted to, she could kill him, there was no fear. And she realised that was how men felt all the time." That is a complete bastardisation of the quote, the feeling of it rather than the actual words, but I found it very powerful as a summary of male/female relations - even in a professional situation where there is no hint or experience of violence between the two participants, that dynamic was there deep under the surface.

I get that quentin I was in an exercise class and at the end the instructor asked us to visualise a goal we want to achieve and my mind was completely blank. It’s so hard to overcome feeling like anything you do for yourself is selfish imho.

I get the shark cage metaphor. I also think the sharks are sharking around dressed as sheep so they’re easy to miss/ ignore/ minimise, depending on your view of sharks.

oh how I understand this. I could have written that post and am having physical flashbacks writing this. There are a few men I trust, family members but that's it. I can't trust others after what happened to me. I'd love to know what it's like to live life completely unafraid but that will never happen and I've accepted that. I have no choice but to.

Oh yes I get this and my experiences have been relatively mild compared to others. It's constant though.

To make it more complicated most if us have sexual desire and/or a want to have children which, unless you are lesbian or have means of getting sperm another way (sperm bank), you need a man for and need to make yourself vulnerable in order to get that. It's hugely complicated. I spent my younger years simultaneously scared of men but full of longing too. It's a head fuck.

And yes yes to putting your own needs last and not knowing what you want or how to even ask for it. Bridezilla anyone?

I am grateful for the article on Schrodingers Rapist. It clarifies perfectly why I am actually scared of some trans identifying men, not just the "pretend" ones we know will abuse self ID. I have not been scared of the TIMs I have met in real life. But I am scared of several of the trans identifying men plastered over the media at the moment. Because they are quite public about their disregard for my boundaries. That flags them up to me as being potential problems; people who might disregard other, physical boundaries. So I am going to own that I am afraid of some TIMs. Its not a phobia though because it is not irrational, as that article explains.

It is the wolf in sheeps clothing, on many threads and conversations NAMALT consists of details of wonderful men in womens lives such as husbands, sons, brothers and friends etc. But reality is men who commit sexual assault are someone’s son, someone’s family, someone’s friend and they could be someone’s husband/ partner. As most women keep sexual assault private we can only judge on character and I know my judgement is screwed. The men in my life have not assaulted me but can anyone guarantee the men in their lives have never sexually assaulted anyone.

unicorn hope you are ok

changey I get what you’re saying. I’m really wary of anyone that pushes my boundaries and tries to stop me from voicing my distress at that.

Again, speaking as someone who hasn't experienced male violence - one of the things that makes me feel so frustrated is ...

It's seemingly worse to be accused of rape, than it is to be raped (we all agree that it's worse to be murdered, than to be accused of murder).

Women have to cover up what happened to them - be silent - because accusing a man of what they've done is the worst thing that could happen to them (the man). If you speak up, you can expect things not to go well for you.

The trope - 'hell hath no fury like a woman scorned'. Actually, hell hath no fury like a man scorned. When men are scorned, they're far more likely to turn violent, kill. They do it, en masse, daily.

'Women are ruled by their emotions'. And yet men can't be expected to control themselves to the extent of not raping woman who cross their paths - 'well, what did she expect, dressed like that / walking alone there?', etc, etc.

How have we (society) come to accept these ways of diminishing us - making us appear silly, weak, out of control - when actually, the opposite is true?

This cover-up, that depends wholesale on our participation, simultaneously benefits men, and harms us.

I never say NAMALT. It annoys me when people say it.

I do realise that every man on the planet hasn't committed an assault, but frankly the general attitude, which is also present in a general "burying their head in the sand" view, doesn't make me feel NAMALT.

I might be missing it but I don't see any men working to prevent male violence or endemic misogyny. In fact over the course of my life I feel I have seen misogyny get worse.

Fucking hell, cuntess (great name!) that is such a good point. How the hell has that been hiding in plain sight? I am challenging these notions forthwith.

I have been very badly sexually assaulted in the past, twice by senior doctors as well, so I really detest male medics in particular.

Same here and it's left me profoundly scared of men because doctors are supposed to only help you.

To be honest, even before I'd experienced any assault I was wary. I have very clear memories of feeling certain men were predatory even before I had any understanding of sex. I'm convinced I narrowly avoided being assaulted at 8 by the boyfriend of a babysitter who wasn't supposed to be in our house (he snuck in and was trying to persuade his girlfriend to let him put me to bed while she was distracted by my very badly behaved brother, this after being very over-tactile with me and in my face). There were the men who looked me up and down and stared in a certain way to the point of me obviously feeling uncomfortable. There were the ones who wanted me to sit on their laps or let me pick them up when I was making it clear I didn't want to be touched.

I think you pick up on certain signals very clearly. I still know and have experience of lots of decent men who I felt completely safe and comfortable with. I have nice male friends today and a nice dad. But too right am I wary and I don't see why I have to shut up about that.

I have tried to explain this to my DP over the trans stuff in regards to our DD's.

He has never been afraid of another man.
Never had to look over his shoulder.
Never had his arse felt/unwanted hands anywhere.
Never had to watch his drink in case it was spiked.
Never had to use the womens loo as an escape.
Never had to be careful getting in a taxi/walking alone/choosing what to wear.

Girls learn this stuff from a young age. Survival skills.

dowager that’s a really interesting view. Why don’t we report our abuse? In my view, they get you when you’re young, too young to truly understand what is happening to you and you are scared you’ll get into trouble as well. Which you well might looking at how girls have been treated in the numerous grooming scandals up and down the country.

Also it’s reported far and wide how terrible it is to report, how horrible the police are, how picky the cps are, how inquisitorial the court is, how juries won’t believe you, how your rapist will walk away with their head held high whilst you’re in the paper with people baying for your head on a spike. You wouldn’t put your worst enemy through that - why do it to yourself?

Everyone seems quite happy to believe namalt - there’s no real push to remove the scales. Every time I’ve opened up to someone there’s been a story from them too. It’s so hard to put yourself out there because speaking for myself, I’m not strong enough to be questioned on what I did/didn’t do, dismissed because I haven’t involved the police, patronised or ignored if I’m distressed or if I share details what if there’s a comeback?

OP "Everyone seems quite happy to believe namalt - there’s no real push to remove the scales."

interestingly, one friend who got in a massive rage - as did I - during the MeToo stuff is now apologising for men all over the shop. I honestly think she can't face the facts - she did initially acknowledge how widespread it is but now has done a u-turn.

spring I really believe it’s fear and magical thinking. If you look at the truth, it’s you staring into the void and it’s terrifying. Much easier to work really hard in believing 99.99999% of men are super lovely and it’s the odd Harvey Weinstein or Jimmy Saville bad apple that cause all the unpleasantness.