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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do women like 'cis'?

397 replies

CisMyArse · 19/03/2018 10:03

Bloody gone and tangled myself in a twitter argument.

I don't like the term Cis, not many here do neither. I should have worded it differently, but I can't let it go. Someone has asked me how I can speak for all women and I don't know how to retort Blush

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 00:09

No one suffers oppression quite like the mediocre white male.

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 22/03/2018 00:11

Revenge of the beta male

merrymouse · 22/03/2018 00:20

Nothing is taken from women like me by applying the cis label.

Things that are taken from me:

  • The ability to reject the idea of gender.
  • The ability to live in a world where law is based on logic.

This isn’t just some abstract idea that some people believe. Children in mainstream state funded schools are being taught that they have a ‘gender identity’ that is more important than the physical reality of their bodies, and that girls in particular should give up rights to privacy and space.

How are you OK with this?

ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2018 00:33

Nothing is taken from women like me by applying the cis label.

It seems quite effective in taking away our ability to have our concerns taken seriously, or even publicly debated at all.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2018 00:54

The supposed analogy with chemical isomers is actually quite funny, to a chemist... cis and trans isomers have different properties and generally don't interconvert. They are fundamentally different things, you can't just substitute one for the other. The sort of isomers which do interconvert are labelled syn and anti....Grin

Materialist · 22/03/2018 03:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

thebewilderness · 22/03/2018 03:48

Very well and thoroughly said and I applaud you! Flowers

Materialist · 22/03/2018 04:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 05:37

assassinated That's fair, it was kind of a bad example, I mean I don't think that people who don't agree with the split-attraction model are ignorant, or even 'wrong'. There's no evidence either way so at this point it is just a difference of opinion.

The whole split attraction idea always comes across to me as some young people being incredibly confused by the intensity with which they love their closest friends, which is just depressing. It's not unusual to have friends who you treasure and adore, and it doesn't mean that the romantic and sexual parts of yourself have somehow split like an amoeba.

AngryAttackKittens · 22/03/2018 06:18

*assassinated when I started uni I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life, so the degree was kind of less important to me than the experience of university. Ironically I ended up at one of the best universities for my particular course, couldn't care less though as I'm not going to be doing anything related to my undergrad degree.

What I cared about was making friends, the academic staff being nice, the area being pleasant, not being too far from home (but not too close either), and some fun stuff to do outside of class. I'd imagine a lot of people feel the same when deciding on a university.*

This may be the single most middle class thing I've ever read. Getting a job post university so that you can pay off whatever debt you've accumulated? Making a living long term? Actually being good at what you're studying? Wanting to learn things? Meh, whatever, university isn't a place to learn, it's a place to find some mates and hopefully enjoy a bit of boating or whatever.

I'm trying to imagine explaining my choice of uni to my parents this way back in the day. My dad left school at 15 because his family needed the money he could bring in by getting a job, I think he'd have had steam coming out of his ears.

ChattyLion · 22/03/2018 07:08

Materialist thanks for your brilliant post. I am getting a political education on these threads. Flowers

Datun · 22/03/2018 08:56

Materialist

That is a stunning post. Can I share it?

I acquired late, onset feminism. It appears to be quite contagious. Especially as a result of exposure to the trans issue.

Most women, come up against systematic sexism. The older you get, the more you encounter it.

But it's often only when you see feminism and it's nemesis, misogyny, in an historical context you realise the sheer scale of women's disadvantage. And exactly how it is implemented.

When feminists talk about patriarchy and oppression, the image many people imagine you have is a bunch of shifty looking men with clipboards, ticking off lists on exactly how to piss off and subjugate women.

They will say oh my God, you think there's a mass conspiracy?! Fools. Bloody feminazi.

But as soon as you get into historical context, it's almost exactly that. They're not subjugating for the sake of it, there's a very beneficial result.

They want a certain outcome, they scrabble around to find the means, and lo and behold women are it. Every single time. Until it looks, to many, as though that is exactly what women are for. And nothing else.

At that point, the entitlement sets in and it can be breathtakingly blinding.

So many women say men don't see it, men don't get it.

They do see it, they do get it. They can read. But to them, it's completely normal.

Women are just lesser than. Bless them.

And when you point out the irrefutable facts, they go into a tizzy of namalting and whataboutery.

Because what else can they do?

How can they square away the undeniability or women's disadvantage with the fact that, to them, it's normal and the right order of things. Shhh.

And this latest onslaught against women is getting a soft landing, because capitalising on women's lesser than status and exploiting it is ok. It always has been. What's the big deal?

And now, children, girls and boys, men and women are actually being instructed on how to do it. And they're all falling into line.

When students like loops go into the world and come smack bang up against rank sexism, she will have no tools, and more importantly, no resources with which to either explain it or counter it.

It's no surprise that places like the Vancouver women's library have been targeted. With instructions to burn books by feminists.

The Salford working women's resource instructed to not host feminists.

It's no surprise that older feminists like Germaine Greer and Linda Bellos are no platformed and vilified across the board.

And that suddenly, ageism, but only in terms of women, is creeping in to young people's narrative. As entirely acceptable.

The historical context must be eradicated, it's too revealing.

You have to ask yourself, if men weren't determined to preserve the patriarchy why would they care? Why would they target everything woman? Why would they be this determined?

And, unless it is considered normal, correct, and the right order of things, why aren't more men opposing it?

Arkengarthdale · 22/03/2018 09:03

But what I don't understand is why, if women are so disadvantaged and so oppressed, men want to become women? I can clearly understand in the sporting 'field' and make sex offenders wanting easy access to vulnerable female prisoners, but the rest? What do they actually think they're going to get out of it?

I too am being educated and having my eyes opened wide by these threads. Thanks to erudite and articulate posters throughout

KochabRising · 22/03/2018 09:03

Materialist

A brilliant post.

Arkengarthdale · 22/03/2018 09:04

*male

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 22/03/2018 09:12

I have just seen this in Pink News.

Donald Trump’s Education Secretary Betsy DeVos has taken a resolute stance against transgender children.

DeVos has rolled back Obama-era protections for transgender children, and earlier this year directed the Department of Education to stop investigating allegations of discrimination against transgender kids who have been banned from restrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender.
The Trump cabinet member was challenged over her policy during a House Appropriations subcommittee this week, where she was challenged by Rep. Mark Pocan.

In her response, DeVos confirmed that the department will limit any action against discrimination to a literal reading of discrimination law, which states that “No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be subjected to discrimination under any education program”.

While the Obama administration had taken a proactive interpretation of this to also tackle homophobic and transphobic discrimination, DeVos stated she would not do so unless directed to by Congress.

She said: “We have continued to protect the rights of students as defined under Title IX, we have continued to do so, and consider those matters brought through the Office for Civil Rights.

“We will continue to do so until either the Supreme Court or Congress clarifies the law with regards to access to bathrooms, athletic locker rooms and athletic teams.

“That is not an area where law has been clarified. This department is not going to make law, we are going to enforce laws that we are given to do.”

Camomila · 22/03/2018 09:15

I don't like 'cis', I don't agree with a lot of female gender stereotypes, at times it feels like they are just there to oppress us. I've been rebelling against them since I was a small child.

I don't feel like a woman, I am a woman because of biology. Apart from times when it's got something to do with biology (breastfeeding, being the short one in a crowd) I barely think about my sex at all, and if I do in other circumstances its usually negative (like I'd best not mention my child in a job interview)

We're doing feminism as our seminar topic tomorrow. I'll let you know if anything interesting happens.

Datun · 22/03/2018 09:19

Arkengarthdale

They don't want to become women. They want to become a fantasy version. Their fantasy version.

I'm not talking about men with gender dysphoria, necessarily. (Although, I would be fascinated to learn how that takes hold, within our current highly gendered society).

I'm talking about trans-activists, and men who say they are women, but without gender dysphoria.

Many of whom have a sexual motivation. Not necessarily predatory, but linked to eroticism.

This link will give you some insight into what I mean.

Written by, and for, women who are married to transwomen.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

Tralalee · 22/03/2018 09:19

That's an amazing post @materialist

Thank you for writing it

Datun · 22/03/2018 09:21

We're doing feminism as our seminar topic tomorrow. I'll let you know if anything interesting happens.

Wow. I'd love to hear how that goes.

Someone recommended I do a short course in women's studies. There aren't any.

At first I was confused because I thought I was using the wrong terminology.

But no, certainly within 40 miles of where I live, they don't exist.

HerFemaleness · 22/03/2018 09:30

But what I don't understand is why, if women are so disadvantaged and so oppressed, men want to become women?

A good chunk of men don't believe in male privilege or are aware that women are disadvantaged for being women.

ErrolTheDragon · 22/03/2018 09:37

AAK -yes... part of the problem with the views you hear coming from university is that the (many!) students who are the complete opposite of that - e,g, studying engineering or medicine - are busy actually working and engaged in their subject. With some fun and even boating, but no time (or inclination) for pomo word games.

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 09:43

But what I don't understand is why, if women are so disadvantaged and so oppressed, men want to become women?

It's a patriarchal backlash against the activism of women in the twentieth century. That activism freed women from being property in the institution of marriage, set up services for women escaping patriarchal control and violence, got women the vote, got laws passed about rape and sexual violence and agitated for a cash transfer system that enabled mothers to be independent economic actors outside the shelter of a man's income.

The impulse of the patriarchy - conscious or subconscious - is to control. Its control was gradually weakened throughout the twentieth century and now, in the twenty-first, patriarchy is trying to get it back. That's why porn looks like it does. And that's why men want to be "women" - to gain control in the spaces women carved out for themselves in the twentieth century.

And, as Datun says, the tragedy for students like Loop is that they have no understanding of how recent women's liberation history is. And they are blindly walking into a regressive future, brainwashed by postmodern nonsense that is the patriarchy's backdoor to regaining control.

merrymouse · 22/03/2018 09:44

But what I don't understand is why, if women are so disadvantaged and so oppressed, men want to become women?

they can opt out of the being disadvantaged by sex part. To be fair, gender non conforming men suffer discrimination, but not the same kind of discrimination.

It’s also apparently possible to benefit from male privilege in your career, get a woman to bear and bring up your children and then become a woman.

LangCleg · 22/03/2018 09:48

part of the problem with the views you hear coming from university is that the (many!) students who are the complete opposite of that - e,g, studying engineering or medicine - are busy actually working and engaged in their subject. With some fun and even boating, but no time (or inclination) for pomo word games

Both my sons actually and actively avoided campus socialising for this very reason. They and their respective friendship groups (non-pomo!) went into the town/city to socialise instead. They would both see their personal politics as leftist but found the university social culture overwhelmingly negative. Both stuck to sports only in terms of campus activities.

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