Do women like 'cis'?

[CisMyArse]

Bloody gone and tangled myself in a twitter argument.

I don't like the term Cis, not many here do neither. I should have worded it differently, but I can't let it go. Someone has asked me how I can speak for all women and I don't know how to retort

Good for you Scatty can you see why other women might mind?

I saw earlier that Lily Madigan is describing themselves as "not cis". Another step along the road to "trans" as a descriptor vanishing, and it becomes "women and cis women". Because there's no earthly reason you would describe yourself as "not not trans" otherwise

Thank you for contributing Scatty. It would be helpful if you could explain how your identity corresponds to your biological sex and how that differs from people who have a different biological sex.

I loathe the term 'cis' - it offends me deeply, and I find it scary how it is infiltrating the mainstream. Both Donkey and Vesuvia explained why earlier in the thread far more clearly than I could ever articulate - so thank you.

I mind. We are not a subset of women, we are women. It is a label being given to us at a time when we are supposed to be what we feel, well I don't feel "cis".

It is worrying that it’s coming from universities
I studied with some great lecturers in feminism in early 90s, I wonder if there’s much resistance with the older camp still lecturing

Marsha, I saw I post that at one University, everyone on the panel of a women's committee (or something) is a trans woman...so much for female representation.

I had never heard of the word cis before all this started.

@loopsdefruit

It would appear that there are quite a few transwomen who are now describing themselves cis.

On the basis that their inner gender identity of female does match their body, which although having the appearance of male anatomy, is also female.

Are you able to explain that to me?

Like previous posters, I reject the word cis.

The word woman is not defined in relation to a man who says he's a woman.

I'm not, not a man who...

Especially as it is these very men who are demanding the redefinition.

If you are getting pushback on here, it's because you are directly complicit in upholding women's oppression.

I'd be interested to know whether the women who object to the term cisgender on the basis that it suggests they are 'subordinate' within their gender feel the same about other human descriptors. For example, you get gay men and straight men. By calling straight men straight, are we suggesting they are in a subordinate category?

I think most people would recognise that not to be the case and would instead agree that gay and straight are just two different identities that any man could have. I think the same is comparatively true of trans people and cis people. Trans and cis aren't subordinate categories. They're just different descriptors of the way humans can be.

It used to be the case that straight was considered the 'normal' way of being and that gay men weren't 'proper' men but were mentally ill, perverted, confused, inhuman etc. Some people now feel the same about trans men and women. But we are in a position of social transformation and in the future our children and grandchildren will look back upon transphobia the way the majority of people now look at homophobia.

(P.S. I know this post only references gay men and not lesbians / bisexuals etc - that's only bedside I picked one example for simplicity, not because I'm intentionally ignoring anyone else).

Trans and cis aren't subordinate categories. They're just different descriptors of the way humans can be.

For this to be true, a transwoman would have to literally be a subset type of woman. Rather than a man who has had his genitals (potentially) removed and who wears clothes which are stereotypically female.

As you can see on MN there are many potential problems with taking that as a literal truth, many of which involve the safety of the more vulnerable members of society.

Gay and straight men are both types of men, though.
You could have trans-ID women (who identify as male) and non-trans-ID women (who don't) I suppose. That would be the equivalent.

False equivalent. 'Straight' hasn't ever been a standard term of abuse, and gay people have never started demanding that straight people label and name themselves as such. Nor is the word 'straight' intended to create a subordinate category for a political purpose damaging to straight people.

"Someone has asked how I can speak for all women and I don't know how to retort"

Well you can't. You don't speak for all women  did you claim you did? Just speak for you and why you don't like it.

Incidentally @CisMyArse I don't like it either but I'm not sure i like the idea that you or anyone on Twitter is speaking for me either ! Someone women might like it, I haven't met any but I can't assume from that they don't exist

Abso-fucking-lutely not. 'Woman' is sufficient.

‘It used to be the case that straight was considered the 'normal' way of being and that gay men weren't 'proper' men but were mentally ill, perverted, confused, inhuman etc. Some people now feel the same about trans men and women. But we are in a position of social transformation and in the future our children and grandchildren will look back upon transphobia the way the majority of people now look at homophobia. ’

No no no no no no.

Gay men ARE men.

Transwomen aren’t women they are Male. Adult male bodied people who like to present in a feminine way.
This analogy with homophobia falls down here, what you are saying is that if a man acts in a feminine way then he is not a ‘proper’ man and is in fact a woman. It is YOU who is being homophobic.

How can you argue that some feminine males are men and it’s homophobic to claim otherwise and some feminine males are women and it’s transphobic to claim otherwise.

Trans and cis aren't subordinate categories. They're just different descriptors of the way humans can be.

Unfortunately that's either naive or disingenuous.

The analogy with gay people would be them insisting they are straight, demanding straight people call themselves 'straight-adjacent', and then insisting that they're doing heterosexuality all wrong and they need to centre same sex attraction in their heterosexuality, otherwise they're not being intersectional.

And reinforcing that with threats and violence.

Just so it penetrates.

Also feminists don’t believe that trans women are ‘mentally ill, perverted, confused, inhuman etc.’
We think they are MALE.

I'd be interested to know whether the women who object to the term cisgender on the basis that it suggests they are 'subordinate' within their gender feel the same about other human descriptors.

This has been answered by several people. It's a false analogy. I'll be interested in your response.

As others have said, rejecting "cis" isn't a value judgement. It's rejecting a belief system we don't share.

I see cis as something similar to using the phrase neurotypical. It would be hugely offensive to say normal people vs people with autism/Downs syndrome etc. So in that vein I can understand using cis to differentiate between trans women and normal women, and using it makes no difference to me in those discussions

'Women' and 'transwomen' differentiates perfectly well between women and transwomen, who are two different classes of adult humans.

Just as 'horse' and 'seahorse' differentiates perfectly well between two completely different animals. We all know what 'horse' means - we don't have to say 'land horse' to differentiate the two.

Equally, we don't need to make the word 'woman' clearer. We all know that a woman is an adult human female.

However, there is confusion around the word 'transwoman', and other terms such as 'transgender woman', 'transgender female', etc. People are often unsure which way round this is, ie whether a 'transgender woman' is a woman who identifies as a man, or a man who identifies as a woman.

So, if terms need to be made clearer, it is the terms transwoman/transman and their variations which need to change. Using terms such as male-to-trans makes it perfectly clear that the starting point was a male body but doesn't pretend that this male body is now a woman.

And whilst our politicians may be parroting 'transwomen are women', would they be quite so happy to claim that 'male-to-trans' are women?

Words have power. Watch how they are being used.

@Teacuphiccup unfortunately that isn't always true. Aside from the fact that many feminists consider the category of women to include transwomen, I've seen many self-professed feminists on this site and elsewhere claiming that transwomen (they are generally less concerned about transmen) are suffering from delusions and should be treated as though they have a mental illness. This is very common to the way gay people were treated for a long time.

I have also seen it claimed that trans women are men with a fetish, predators, confused gay men or lesbians who don't understand how they feel or who they are etc.

I'm not saying this is how you feel, just that you don't speak for all feminists and the attitudes I've mentioned are very prevalent on these boards, by women who identify as feminists.

Re your point on me being homophobic, I'm afraid I don't understand and you'll need to explain more clearly for me to respond.

I've never quite understood what cis is supposed to mean (except that there's a def feel that cis people have it easy...

ihatemyclients

In your first post you said that its homophobic to say that a male person who is feminine is less of a male.
So therefore trans ideology that insists that a male person who presents as feminine is now not male and is now female must be homophobic no?

I think the mental illness thing is a false equivalency.
Gender dysphoria is the very real experience of being distressed by the sex you are born with, this is not the same as the ‘mental illness’ allegations thrown at gay people. Many trans people fight for better mental health services for themselves because of the distress that their gender dysphoria causes and to pretend that it’s not real is damaging for trans people. When people on this boards talk about trans being a mental health issue we are talking about gender dysphoria.

Men with gender dysphoria presenting as women would, out of courtesy, like to be treated as such in terms of social empathy.

They know they are male, but they have the disorder known as gender dysphoria. They frequently call themselves transsexuals, but are known by the second, more recent cohort as 'Truscum'.

The second cohort - men who claim they are biological women, because sex is determined by your brain, not your body, therefore their penis is a female organ, and lesbians are transphobic for not including them in their dating pool, are absolutely delusional.

And men who have autogynephilia are fetishists.

Delusional and fetishist relate to those of the second cohort, not the first.

None of them women, though.