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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do women like 'cis'?

397 replies

CisMyArse · 19/03/2018 10:03

Bloody gone and tangled myself in a twitter argument.

I don't like the term Cis, not many here do neither. I should have worded it differently, but I can't let it go. Someone has asked me how I can speak for all women and I don't know how to retort Blush

OP posts:
Kneedeepinunicorns · 21/03/2018 13:12

You're welcome to believe that transwomen are women. You're welcome to believe that feminism should centre the needs and interests of born men if you want to. You're welcome to believe in God and fairies at the bottom of your garden. Crack on, it's a free country. Just please extend me the same courtesy.

Asking me to use the word 'cis' is like asking me to genuflect when I pass a cross whether or not I share beliefs and saying 'oh but it's just a gesture of respect to other people's feelings'.

Teacuphiccup · 21/03/2018 13:15

Also I don’t think that trans women are perverts but the changes in the definition of what counts as trans now it includes people who dress up for a fetish as trans.
This is not the same as when people said being gay was a perversion.
It’s not the fact that men are dressing as women that’s the issue, it’s the fact that some people with fetishes are now being given the legal status of woman if they so choose.
Are we supposed to pretend that men who dress up as women for a fetish don’t exist?

To be honest if I was a trans woman and I was put in the same category as the fetishists I’d be fuming. It not us putting them in that category, it’s stonewall.

Teacuphiccup · 21/03/2018 13:18

Sorry that needed some punctuation I’ll try again.

I don’t think that trans women are perverts, but the changes in the definition of what counts as trans (as given by stonewall), now includes people who dress up for a fetish.
It’s not that transwomen have fetishes it’s that people with fetishes are now considered transwomen.

DontCisgenderMe · 21/03/2018 13:20

Trans and cis aren't subordinate categories. They're just different descriptors of the way humans can be.

As many people have already explained at length, 'cis' isn't an accurate descriptor for people who are 'not trans'. I have no innate gender identity which may or may not match up with my physical body and I recognise the extent to which imposition of gender stereotypes is harmful.

Previous posters have mentioned 'neurotypical' being used to differentiate if needed when talking about autism. Bearing in mind the distress that gender dysphoria brings, would something similar here be 'trans' and 'non-dysphoric'?

Goldmonday · 21/03/2018 13:25

individual in question may have the body of a boy, they are in every other respect a girl

Sorry did I read that write??? Other than your physiology what other "respects" can you be a woman?

You like to wear pretty dresses and make up maybe????? Is this a joke?! This is fucking sexist to the extreme as it associates certain behaviours and appearances to being a female. I thought women were supposed to be breaking out of the gender stereotype; I.e I am more than just manicured nails and a made up face. Apparently not! Apparently those exact features are what MAKE you a woman.

Emily Pankhurst must be turning in her grave.

Seriously I don't even know why they bother teaching science in schools nowadays if this is the sort of bullshit we are having to accept as truth nowadays.

Greenyogagirl · 21/03/2018 13:26

So a boy has a feminine personality..... and? He’s still a boy.

squishee · 21/03/2018 13:51

Cis seems to be used (when not used as an insult) because males who have transitioned to female want to be considered as a subset of women. Surely they are really a subset of men? But they have to invade women's spaces. Again.

Vickxy · 21/03/2018 14:14

To be honest if I was a trans woman and I was put in the same category as the fetishists I’d be fuming. It not us putting them in that category, it’s stonewall.

Indeed. I don't really understand why there is not more uproar about this.

You cannot really moan about transpeople being associated with fetishists, whilst accepting stonewalls definition which does lump transsexual people and fetishists together... surely stonewall are being transphobic in saying a crossdresser is the same as a transsexual person?!

DN4GeekinDerby · 21/03/2018 14:42

I'm not a cis woman, I'm a female dysphoric person who has been saved by single-sex spaces and services, I liked that they don't care how I identify but rather my experiences in this body which deserves at least as much consideration as my dysphoria. I don't mind others believing in innate gender identity, but I certainly don't - I think gender is what is applied to me by society - and I have found the pressure to view it as innate has really not helped me cope with being dysphoric. I liked when we could just female/male to discuss sex-based issues but now even those get treated as identities these days.

Ihatemyclients Please stop comparing sexuality to being trans. I don't require medication to live a full life as a bisexual, I have required therapy for my dysphoria and transitioning does generally require medical interventions. Also, straight doesn't mean "not gay", it means someone attracted only to those of the other sex, so those are not very comparable. The reason T is part of LGBT is because same sex attraction used to be considered part of being trans, even part of the diagnostic criteria in many places, it isn't so much anymore.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. Quite a few dysphoric people like me think it is very insulting to erase that. It's caused me years of problems I'd love to be able to "identify" out of but I can't. Do you think it's mentally healthy to want to cut parts of one's body and to get upset if people recognize me as my sex? What about having a mental illness/disability, which I've heard will affect a quarter of people at some point in our lives, is so bad that you think it shouldn't be recognized? The move to erase that is only going to make it harder for dysphoric people, trans or otherwise, to get the care we need. I want better mental health care, it will make living with dysphoria far easier than any of the things currently being proposed in wider society.

How would you recommend a dysphoric person who does not identify as trans be labelled? According to multiple studies, the vast majority - over 80% - of dysphoric people are not trans. We can't be cis, it would be pretty gross to say we are "on the same side" of what is causing us distress, but it would be equally wrong to say we're trans (even though people do try) when we're very clear that's not how we identify.

That's the issue with having a term that are 'everyone else but'. Like neurotypical, there are dozens and more ways that makes a person not be neurotypical. Just not being autistic does not make one neurotypical, obviously. It's useful in some settings, like education, to discuss certain things but it catches several issues in broader settings. Just being not depressed does not make one mentally well. Just not identifying as trans should not make one cis - there are many many ways people are not on the same side of a gender. Dysphoria, sex role nonconforming, politically... labelling everyone who not trans as cis erases people.

It's weird that there are so many labels under the trans umbrella now, many of which don't want to be together and seems to include almost everyone, but the other side just gets cis.

vesuvia · 21/03/2018 14:42

Goldmonday wrote - "Other than your physiology what other "respects" can you be a woman?"

In the legal sense - it's called a legal fiction - something that is not actually true but the law treats it as if it is true.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 21/03/2018 14:48

Really well made points DN4

LangCleg · 21/03/2018 14:50

To be honest if I was a trans woman and I was put in the same category as the fetishists I’d be fuming. It not us putting them in that category, it’s stonewall.

This is a point that cannot be emphasised enough.

It's not my fault Stonewall lumped the (often male pattern offending) fetishists in with the dysphorics. It's not my fault all the main political parties want to do the same thing in law via self-ID.

Don't like being lumped in with fetishists? Tell Stonewall, not me. Tell the political parties, not me.

In the meantime, I'll be defending women and girls and if your special gender feels get upset about that, tough shit.

vesuvia · 21/03/2018 14:57

So, in the case of e.g. transgender-identifying male people, the government will treat the person as if they are female, but the government will also know that this is not actually true, and it will retain the documentation to track it. For example, it will allow the person to change their name but it will keep a record of the name change. The government will allow a person to change the "sex" on their passport and driver's licence to make the person's everyday life less complicated, but the government will also record the fact that it has been changed. (It's similar to how governments can change people's identities for witness protection but not loose track of them).

drspouse · 21/03/2018 15:53

So, in the case of e.g. transgender-identifying male people, the government will treat the person as if they are female, but the government will also know that this is not actually true, and it will retain the documentation to track it.
So as a Guider, if I am doing a DBS for a new leader who has "changed sex" legally I can see their previous identities.

(However, to take an example of another "legal fiction", nobody that needs a form of ID for my children can see my children's pre-adoptive names or their birth parents' names, though they both have a "certificate of entry in the adoption register" rather than a "birth certificate" if they need to prove we are their parents. But that information is also retained somewhere).

merrymouse · 21/03/2018 15:59

I'd be interested to know whether the women who object to the term cisgender on the basis that it suggests they are 'subordinate' within their gender feel the same about other human descriptors. For example, you get gay men and straight men. By calling straight men straight, are we suggesting they are in a subordinate category?

No. Gay means attracted to the same sex. Straight means attracted to the opposite sex. They are completely objective descriptions.

Now could you please explain what it means to have a male or female gender.

LadyTesticlee · 21/03/2018 16:05

gay or straight is not the same as adding that daft unnecessary cis bullshit

DonkeySkin · 21/03/2018 17:24

I'd be interested to know whether the women who object to the term cisgender on the basis that it suggests they are 'subordinate' within their gender feel the same about other human descriptors.

'Cis' is not a descriptor. It pretends to be an adjective but it does not function like one. It is actually a linguistic suicide bomber with no grammatical analogues outside of Orwell's Newspeak, because unlike a true modifier, it doesn't add to the sense of the head noun: it obliterates its meaning.

'Trans' and 'cis' are in no way analogous to adjectives like 'straight' and 'gay', which do not change the definition of the noun to which they apply. By saying that a man is straight, you are not altering the definition of man from adult human male. Similarly 'black' or 'disabled' don't change the definition of 'woman' one iota. A black woman is an adult human female who is also black. A 'trans woman' is... what? Not an adult human female, certainly, so what does 'woman' mean in this context? Thus 'trans' is not functioning as a descriptor of a noun like 'black', it is actually obliterating the meaning of the noun to which it is applied. Including males in the category of woman doesn't just change the definition of 'woman', it renders it meaningless, since the word itself only exists in order to distinguish adult human females from adult human males. Once both sexes can be 'women', the word no longer has any objective meaning - it is simply a label that any human being can apply to themselves, for any reason they choose.

So, under this brave new paradigm, what are the rules for deciding who may define the terms under which womanhood and all things pertaining to it may be discussed? Who gets to speak confidently, uninterrupted and with authority over the now ontologically meaningless category of 'woman', and who must apologise and second guess themselves when speaking about it, and confess that their insights can only ever be partial and insufficient? Trans ideology, which claims to be freeing us all from the shackles of biology as a social determinant, actually has a single, immutable standard for deciding this: reproductive biology.

Under trans doctrine, people with male biology not only have the right to claim to be 'women' based on a self-declared 'feeling', but also to dictate the terms by which people with female biology discuss their womanhood and how they organise around it. On all matters pertaining to the category 'woman' and the language we use to discuss it, people with male biology who claim to 'feel like' people with female biology must be deferred to and catered to and never contradicted by by the people who actually have female biology.

Thus, in the radical, revolutionary world of trans ideology, the female-born second guess themselves, apologise for expressing or even thinking thoughts, lest something they have said offends or excludes the male-born, promise to 'do better' at centring males in their thoughts, words and actions, and most especially at centring them in the political movement that was founded by females to liberate themselves from millennia of oppression by males. The male-born never return even an ounce of this deference and humility in kind, but perpetually scold the females for not catering to them sufficiently, and for failing to show adequate deference and submission. How revolutionary. How very unlike the sexed power dynamics of the past 5000 years. Way to go, queer theorists.

vesuvia · 21/03/2018 17:31

drspouse wrote - "So as a Guider, if I am doing a DBS for a new leader who has "changed sex" legally I can see their previous identities."

No, definitely not. The government keep it secret.

To use my analogy of witness protection again, your request would be like expecting criminals to have the right to discover the new identity of a protected witness.

vesuvia · 21/03/2018 17:35

Governments keep records for their benefit, not for our benefit.

vesuvia · 21/03/2018 17:43

"your request would be like expecting criminals to have the right to discover the new identity of a protected witness."

Oops. I should have written:

your request would be like expecting criminals to have the right to discover the old identity of a protected witness.

StickStickStickStick · 21/03/2018 17:49

Gosh drspouse I didn't realise even a dba wouldn't show. So you might not technically know it was a man in your group or have a leg to stand on to even object...

Getoffthetableplease · 21/03/2018 18:00

Fucking 'cis' what a load of shite. I don't want a word labelling me as not having the gender feelz, nor do I think it's needed, thanks.

IntelligentYetIndecisive · 21/03/2018 18:03

drspousewrote - "So as a Guider, if I am doing a DBS for a new leader who has "changed sex" legally I can see their previous identities."

vesuvia No, definitely not. The government keep it secret.

Hold up.

Do crimes committed whilst 'under' a previous identity show up?

Could someone hire a sex offender after jumping through all the DBS hoops?

Datun · 21/03/2018 18:09

As far as I know there is a mandatory opt in for when people change their identity. In terms of the DBS. If they have a record.

However.

Previous Convictions
If you have a conviction in your previous name or the gender identity you were assigned with at birth, this may show on the completed Disclosure. You may be able to prevent this from happening. Therefore if you do have such a conviction, you should discuss this with the Sensitive Applications Team when you make initial contact.

www.galop.org.uk/dbs-gender-identity/

HairyBallTheorem · 21/03/2018 18:10

Donkey: 'Cis' is not a descriptor. It pretends to be an adjective but it does not function like one. It is actually a linguistic suicide bomber with no grammatical analogues outside of Orwell's Newspeak, because unlike a true modifier, it doesn't add to the sense of the head noun: it obliterates its meaning.

I think I want to marry you! Your whole post is brilliant but this is just outstanding.

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