The self-ID petition is live #2

[YesItsADebate]

Here it is: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

The signatories now stand at 5444.

The grey areas on the map are:

• Airdrie and Shotts
• Staffordshire Moorlands
• Bassetlaw
• Harlow
• West Tyrone

The constituencies with the highest number of signatories are:

• Calder Valley
• Brighton Pavillion
• Lewisham West and Penge
• Lewisham, Deptford
• Bristol West
• Edinburgh North and Leith

It’s due to be reported in this week’s Mail on Sunday and Sunday Times.

Thankyou to everyone who has signed, shared, discussed and thought about this petition

6001!
I think the independent article about manfriday is an excellent one to share on FB etc & it has the petition link in it

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/topless-woman-male-only-swimming-pool-protest-gender-recognition-act-amy-desir-dulwich-south-london-a8261801.html?amp&__twitter_impression=true

This is amazing.

My constituency was static for ~36hrs. Another 2 have signed in the last couple of hours. Looks like the petition is picking up some speed today. Nothing radical, but steady movement.

So many of you seem afraid of sharing the petition on facebook and elsewhere; they have done a good job of smearing us and making us frightened of the transphobic label.

Can I suggest taking an approach along the lines of "we must ensure that safeguards are in place to stop straight men who are stalkers, peeping-toms, flashers and pervs from taking advantage of the proposed GRA laws to access female-only private spaces like toilets, changing rooms, wards, refuges and prisons." Then link to the petition.

This will be enough to stop accusations of Transphobia and alert people to how the new self-ID laws might affect them.

Believe me, they won't want to argue in favour of any of the risks. And it will start them on the route to peak trans.

Considering the number of gender-neutral facilities around, and the fact that trans people have been using gender segregated facilities for years, it seems a bit odd that people only jump on the bandwaggon now.

Trans people have been able to do this for years, people only appear to have an issue when it's in the media.

Just chased up ex and reminded him to look at the petition. He's just signed.

If my eyes are right, there are now NO grey spaces on the map. That’s brilliant.

timberlumberjack
"Trans people have been able to do this for years, people only appear to have an issue when it's in the media".

No, people have an issue with SELF IDENTIFICATION. Literally, "I sometimes feel like a women/like girly things, so I am a woman". Because that's all women are, apparently, a set of stereotypes and feelings.

More info HERE;
sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

people are objecting because of the proposal to change the law, meaning that anyone can just SAY they are transgender and then have the right to use oppoisitie sex facilities. At the moment you can only get a gender recognition certificate with medical approval. It would mean any man/boy can just say he's tramsgender and use a femal dorm/ward/prison/chaging room/toilet

The reason it's an issue now is due to 2 things. One is the proposed changes to the gender bill that would allow self ID ie any man who says he's a woman must be treated as one. No documentation hormones or surgery required. The second is the increasing tendency of transsexuals not to bother with genital surgery any way even without the change in law. Many prominent transwomen still have penises. This totally changes what being a transexual is all about and it makes the whole thing more of an illogical nonsense than it was before.

One for the sports fans?

Whilst I appreciate the link SuitedandBooted, I fail to see its relevance.

Self-identification for a GRC wouldn't mean someone can just decide they're female for a day, get the GRC and then change back in order to get access to a women's service. Once you got a GRC, you're issued with a new birth certificate showing your new gender, and HMRC are informed to change the information recorded against your NI number. That'd all be the same, just anyone wishing to get a GRC wouldn't have to follow some vague/arbitrary rules as to whether they're the gender they say they are. As soon as you got the GRC, you'd legally be the gender on your certificate.

newtlover, you can already say you're a man or woman and use the mens/womens toilets/changing rooms.

2rebecca, transsexual and transgender are different things. Plenty of people for many many years have not had surgery. Also, you never have been required to be on hormones or have had surgery to get a GRC.

This will be enough to stop accusations of Transphobia

Sadly not.

Also, you never have been required to be on hormones or have had surgery to get a GRC.

No, but you had to apply rather than just rock up somewhere and announce that despite the beard you are actually a woman and demand to be treated as such.

"Self-identification for a GRC wouldn't mean someone can just decide they're female for a day, get the GRC and then change back in order to get access to a women's service."

Do you actually think all the men who want to access women's spaces will all get Gender Certificates? Do you expect women/girls in changing rooms/toilets etc to challenge men in there, and demand to see their credentials? ( sorry if that sounds a bit Frankie Howard!)

It won't happen. There is already advice from Swim England/British Guiding/Universities which basically tells women to just shut up and look the other way in case they "distress" the supposedly transwoman. Tough shit if we're distressed - men must be considered first, last and always.

SimonBridges, you'd still have to apply for one if you want legal recognition of your gender past whatever recognition the Equality Act 2010 provides.

SuitedandBooted, men mustn't be considered 'first, last and always'. The guidelines are there for trans people. There's a lot of rhetoric about men just turning up to women's events/facilities but no evidence to suggest that it would happen. Additionally, there's no legal restriction to using the other gender's toilets, so these supposed predatory men could be in there already.

Self-identification for a GRC wouldn't mean someone can just decide they're female for a day

Except that...

Some people (eg Philip/Pippa Bunce) identify as gender fluid which means that on some days they identify as a man and some days they identify as a woman. I don't know how that works for passports/HMRC, but P Bunce has work id in both names/gender identities. So how does that work? If they can do it, what's to stop others?

And given that misgendering someone (even in a genuine error) or identifying them as a biological male instead of 'recognising' them as the NoDifferentToABiologicalWoman that they want you to pretend try are will be a hate crime, how many people are going to feel confident in asking someone if they have a GRC as they enter the toilets etc?

The problem is that there might actually be simple answers to all of these things but, as there is no debate allowed and every concern is shut down with "that won't he an issue because TW are W", people don't have confidence that these potential issues will be planned for.

After all, neither Amy or Hannah actually identify as men at all other than to attend a male only swim session in order to raise awareness by only pretending to identify as men in order to gain access to a men only space.

No one asked them if they had a GRC or what their commitment to their trans status is.

Very few women want to be exposed to strangers' penises. It's abusive to force women to see male genitalia. Here is a woman on Twitter on this subject. School won't help, police talk about transphobia.

There's a lot of rhetoric about men just turning up to women's events/facilities but no evidence to suggest that it would happen

In some cases, some of these TIM are saying that they want to - L M has declared an intention to volunteer at a refuge/shelter for vulnerable women and jobs with rape charities have been described as "only open to applications from women, including self identified"

This isn't even just about males "turning up", it's about them actually being invited in!

TheGoldenBough, I'll always defend people's right to debate, but there's a lot of misinformation going around, and a lot of undue fear.

I think there's a place for trans women to be excluded from some areas of things such as domestic abuse shelters. I don't think many trans women would mind having to be in a different area, if you're in the situation where you're needing to use these facilities I doubt the fact that you can't be in a room next to someone else is too big on your mind.
However, toilets/changing rooms/whatever else that is similar, anyone who is trans should and do get the same treatment as anyone else. Predators will exist whether legislation for trans people exists or not. If somebody wishes to cause someone else harm, they'll do so.

Your point about gender fluidity is a tricky one. Not just for the law, but for gender fluid people themselves. Lots of gender fluid people just use the accessible toilets because it causes less fuss. Others use the toilets of whatever gender they're presenting as. Legally, there's currently no provision for these non-binary genders in the UK. There is in other countries though.

Anyway, you don't need a GRC to use the women's toilets if you're a trans woman, and vice versa.

"Here's a lot of rhetoric about men just turning up to women's events/facilities but no evidence to suggest that it would happen"

"Look away girls, there's nobody there!!"

TheGoldenBough

What the hell would LM do in an a woman's shelter?? Bore the women to death with tales of her heroism in the face of a cruel unjust world..........

What's wrong with trans people doing good deeds of volunteering? Risk assessment wise, it's unwise to allow people to be left alone with vulnerable people anyway. A trans woman volunteering at a refuge seems to me to be very honorable, and with common sense dictating they wouldn't be left alone with a vulnerable person, just as you'd expect, plus the vulnerable person could request someone else.