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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Lees just been hugely dissed live on TV

182 replies

Wobbleslikeaweeble · 15/03/2018 10:23

Ok sounds gossipy but PL is on the Wright Stuff right now and disagreed with Anne whatshername from the chase and Anne just said “you should know you used to be a boy” - huge Awkward silence.

Tbh, I don’t like Anne and her reply to Lees was harsh and unnecessary. I really don’t like PLs either to be clear. It was quite a 😱 moment.

OP posts:
LadyMcLadyCrisps · 15/03/2018 11:39

My personal interpretation was that Anne was conceding her point and defferring to Paris’ experience on the matter, because she used to be a boy.

Obviously I am not Anne, so dont know her intention, but that is how it seemed to me.

knowwhereyourheadis · 15/03/2018 11:43

~This is the second thread I've read on MN this morning about this TV moment. And all I can think is Who the fuck is Paris Lees......

AliceBuysAbar · 15/03/2018 11:46

On the other hand, if someone (autism or not) said to someone 'you should know, you used to be fat' I guess that would also be quite hurtful, even if it were true.

Fat is derogatory but saying you used to be overweight when discussing a diet related topic may be relevant and ok. Noboyd has the right not to be offended.

McTufty · 15/03/2018 11:47

I acknowledge Anne has autism and that I don’t know enough about the condition to comment on whether or not this is an excuse - from what I’ve read on this thread, it may well be. That aspect needs to be considered and treated sympathetically.

Putting that to one side and looking only at the comment, I think it was out of order. Being male or not does not mean someone knows if there is an “old boys club” or not, so it comes across as snarky at Paris for being trans.

I am gender critical and consider Paris Lees a misogynist, but this comment was not appropriate.

LadyMcLadyCrisps · 15/03/2018 11:51

I am not suggesting that Paris would have experience of an old boys club simply due to having being male, I think that Annes response related to the fact that Paris strongly stated that there WAS an old boys club, as if she had experience/knowledge of it, which in my opinion is what prompted Annes response and interpretation.

Jayceedove · 15/03/2018 11:51

Who is claiming this was transphobic? Has anybody? Other than this thread?

As a trans woman there was nothing at all phobic about that comment. It is pretty much what I would have expected Ann to say.

I have done hundreds of TV interviews over the years whilst never talking about trans matters (I transitioned 45 years ago) and always knew at any time that someone could say such a thing to me. As my trans status was known but never a subject for open debate because I was not pushing an agenda. fighting for rights or talking about the topic.

But even in those circumstances - especially if the interviewer was someone like James Whale who you might expect to be acerbic nobody ever did. They just asked me about why I was there.

Ditto when I was on Woman's Hour. Not a word about being trans.

I know if I were doing this kind of thing today it would be utterly different and I likely would get asked often.

Paris has put herself out there for just that reason and has to be able to take it with grace and respect.

Like me she might feel that she was 'never' really a boy, as in believed or felt like one even as a child. But equally she knows that this was a statement of fact. No more, no less.

So you have to be ready, willing and able to roll with that and talk around it. Or you should not be on TV talking about these things.

It is a controversial subject and there are legitimate arguments on both sides of the debate. You win nobody over by trying to shut them up.

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/03/2018 11:55

I’ve actually agreed with Lees comments much more than Anne’s in general during the show. Anne is coming over as quite anti women and doesn’t really seem to like them or think women have it harder than men in society.

I’ve agreed a lot with ehat they’ve said this morning on male power and women’s rights. Anne - not at all. Just because I’m gen crit doesn’t mesn i have to automatically disagree with a TW and support a woman - no matter what.

This

I was actually suprised to find myself nodding along and agreeing with PL and shaking my head at Anne. I cant stand PL but that doesnt mean im going to dismiss everything they have to say just because i dont like them.

The world really is topsy turvey right now isnt it Grin

Iminthecclubnow · 15/03/2018 11:59

Who is claiming this was transphobic? Has anybody? Other than this thread?

I asked whether Anne's comment was transphobic, because that's what is being said all over Twitter.

martellandginger · 15/03/2018 12:00

I didn't watch it but what is rude? the delivery? the truth? what? its a discussion programme, trans is not hiding the fact they are trans. Anne can stick up for herself with or without her aspergers.

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/03/2018 12:01

They cut it out didnt they?

I missed it the first time so turned over to +1 to see it... and they havent shown it or even talked about an "old boys club"

Jayceedove · 15/03/2018 12:02

As for the point of the question. Of course, there is and was an Old Boys Club. I transitioned straight out of being at an all boy's grammar school which was hell for me.

But I watched all of those who were boys there get offered all kinds of great jobs using the power of that school. And I have seen it in operation since when involved with politicians or doing talks at clubs where usually only men are allowed. I had a tough time getting in there as a woman and usually needed some kind of chaperone.

And when I started work the fact that I used to be a boy as I was employed as a young woman in the early 70s and treated as such - casual sexism and lower pay than my male counterparts.

Things have improved a bit since then, of course. But there is still some of it around.

Iminthecclubnow · 15/03/2018 12:02

Maybe not all over twitter actually, but people are saying it!

I will be very interested to see how Paris handles this...

LadyMcLadyCrisps · 15/03/2018 12:03

INLOVE it was during a newspaper discussion regarding an article on the gender pay gap.

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/03/2018 12:04

Or was it on in the beginning of the show? Im so lost Blush

Wobbleslikeaweeble · 15/03/2018 12:04

On the show Lees didn’t say anything (on camera at least) , just sat there.

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DontDrinkDontSmoke · 15/03/2018 12:05

I think I love Anne a little bit more now.

InLoveWithDavidTennant · 15/03/2018 12:05

Ah thanks lady

Missed it. Nevermind.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 15/03/2018 12:07

Well, if it is Anne's experience - as a woman at the top of her game - that her sex has not negatively affected her, it certainly isn't PL's opposite experience that led to the disagreement. As Paris does not have female biology to experience the negatives of it.

So yes, the fact that PL used to be a boy is relevant imo, as it shows that PL does not have any direct experience of going up against the old boys network.

Iyswim?

Jayceedove · 15/03/2018 12:09

Iminthe club. I was not saying anything against you, sorry if it seemed that way. I will not be the least surprised if it does offend some of todays wannabe trans folk as they seem too afraid to go see a doctor in order to get a Gender Recognition Certificate (only 7000 of the alleged 600,000 have done that as it is an 'indignity' to try to find out why you feel as you do and discuss the best way to medically deal with it). So they want to self declare by filling out a form.

They need to realise that respect and acceptance are a two way street. People will give these things to you if you show the same to them by not simply demanding rights without being prepared to be properly assessed by the relevant professionals.

Sometimes it looks like a very entitled generation, not just with trans issues, think you should just get because you say so.

The real world does not work like that. You earn what you get by commitment and consideration.

AskBasil · 15/03/2018 12:18

"Never heard of Paris Lees. Love Anne Hegarty."

Other way round for me, without the love. Never heard of Anne H, know of Paris Sleaze.

Didn't watch the show so not sure if it was inappropriate in the context. But whether it was inappropriate or not, it is absolutely essential that everyone, men and women, have the right to tell the truth in public.

Paris did used to be a boy. That is a bald statement of fact, whether it was inappropriate in the context or not.

We have got to get over this idea that the feelings of male people, must always be put above the right of women to tell the truth. Yes I feel sorry for them if their feelings are hurt, yes I think on the whole people should be kind and considerate to each other, but I have had quite enough of men telling women what we are allowed to say in public and that if we state facts, we are bigots.

She sounds bad mannered, Paris is male, The Wright Stuff is a terrible show.

Wobbleslikeaweeble · 15/03/2018 12:21

*I was actually suprised to find myself nodding along and agreeing with PL and shaking my head at Anne. I cant stand PL but that doesnt mean im going to dismiss everything they have to say just because i dont like them.

The world really is topsy turvey right now isnt it*

Exactly

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Iminthecclubnow · 15/03/2018 12:21

You speak a lot of sense Jaycee. Smile

Sanderz · 15/03/2018 12:25

Just posted on the other thread but agree with McTufty on this one.

And how anyone can applaud Anne for anything at all following her appearance I do not know. Least of all on a feminist forum!

She basically said the gender pay gap exists because women aren't "going after" the top positions!!

I like her on the Chase but she needs to shut up about stuff like this. It really wound me up, sorry.

BeyondDeadlySiren · 15/03/2018 12:30

Just in case I need to make it clear - I don't agree with her. I just think she has more right to make a statement on it re her experience of it, than PL does.

therealposieparker · 15/03/2018 12:32

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