Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

[user1471506568]

Ok so I'm a SAHM and would also strongly identify as a radical feminist although admittedly I still am learning about all of this. I understand that liberal feminism is more about the individual as opposed to the class movement so under that philosophy being a SAHM is an acceptable feminist decision but I'm confused about the rad fem stance.

I can see how from a financial perspective being a SAHM is a bit of a backward step for feminism, but this is such a narrow view and I don't think money is the only measure of worth . In fact it strikes me as an extremely patriarchal measure where the balance will always be tipped to men earning more due to women having children.

I would be really interested in people's views on this. Can I be a radical feminist and a SAHM or am I letting down the class movement?

NB: Please don't take this as negative judgement of any working mothers as I respect everyone's decision to do what's best for them.

Thank you Cold.

Which is pretty much what everyone said 5 pages ago.

Context is key. My experiences do not equate with every SAHP. My choices to SAH were moot. I wanted to because the alternative just was not viable. We had planned some speculation on the property market to protect me financially. Even got so far as to arrange financing and pay for surveys but the sale fell through. Then life, managing additional needs and diagnoses took over. We still might sell up and do something with the money in the future. Still an option and I don't regret the choices I have made. I don't see much panning out better given the situation I was in.

As I have said, context matters. Myself, coming from a background in education, whereas my DH didn't I was the best placed of the two of us to advocate for my D.C. I had more background knowledge on child development and how this could impact learning. I had taken a career break. My field of work was less lucrative than his although we are educated to the same level. Yes, I took on the lions share of advocation, yes this facilitated or rather preserved my DH's career to some extent. Forgive us to do what we could to protect the one income we had coming in

Lilting I am not arguing against you in particular, I am arguing with the narrative that means the lions share of this type of work is done by women. I am in education too incidentally and so I would have been able to race in front of my DH with taking on this role. I didn’t and he learned. But what I am saying is like my DH other men could prioritise this and learn too. They don’t, the are very often facilitated in not stepping up. Not you Lilting not you personally, not your situation, men. I am sure many more could step up. They don’t, that is the patriarchy not all these side streets you are dragging us all down. Men taking advantage of women for the betterment of their own circumstances in spite of the fact that it hugely places women at significant disadvantage.

not all these side streets you are dragging us all down

I need to do no dragging. People are sprinting down them on their own volition.

You know what leaf we will never agree on this. So I’m going to stop debating it.

I think we’ll agree you are having a shit time with the cancer diagnosis. I’m hoping you are ok?
How are you feeling today? Are you still able to get out in the veg patch?

Your posts have done very little other than criticising my own, Lass

You are the one who started claiming women who employed childcare / domestic care were exploiting other women.

I could not care less about radical feminist theory and I have not commented on that. I will however respond to a poster hypocritically pontificating about how much she suppports women yet at the same time has almost nothing to say beyond criticising women.

We had planned some speculation on the property market to protect me financially

Oh my- taking advantage of the capitalist patriarchy you profess to despise.

Men taking advantage of women for the betterment of their own circumstances in spite of the fact that it hugely places women at significant disadvantage.

I don't disagree this happens. My own DH would love to focus more on his career. I know he has expressed some frustration, occasionally, at not being able to be more 'high powered'. Especially when we see peers move up to director level. He is talented and loves his work. Sometimes his focus has frustrated me but we need to protect his salary despite also having to manage and advocate for a D.C. with additional needs and cope without family around during pretty gruelling cancer treatment. It's all a bit of a juggle. We've all had to adapt and learn.

Oh my- taking advantage of the capitalist patriarchy you profess to despise.

I'm a realist. I am not a Marxist, just think Marxism makes some pertinent observations regarding the way capitalism works. I acknowledge the current patriarchy is a capitalist one and dismantling it involves dismantling the capitalist system it operates through. I do not claim to be rad fem (or not) just think it is hypocritical for people in high status employment to criticise SAHPs in terms of being anti feminist from a rad fem perspective.

i'm hoping you are ok?
How are you feeling today? Are you still able to get out in the veg patch?

I'm through the Chemo ok. That is the one which makes it difficult getting out. Feeling ok today, thanks.

I'm through the Chemo ok

That’s great news. It will be spring soon, I can’t bloody wait. The weathers been shit for months. I don’t have vegbut I have plans for my garden. I just need some decent weather to actually implement them.

capitalist patriarchy you profess to despise

I am definitely not a fan of the capitalist patriarchy as it currently exists either.

I think outsourcing minding children is avoidable (although not currently) and personally I see this as a worthwhile aspiration. Parents having more time with their children is a good thing. I think men stepping up and a complete shift in the working week, which I believe is going to be forced by AI coming on stream, is the answer to a much more equal society. A reduction in hours in the working week, more flexible work practices for both parents and people working (much less) and parenting in shifts would mean that people could strike a proper work/life balance. People without children could pursue more creative activities or take on other caring or voluntary activities or whatever they like.

If families could often be supported on a 50ish hour working week in the past, that would be a good thing to hope for in the future too.

Women need to support each other, accept and respect women who have made different life choices

I don't agree with this statement. I will not blindly accept a woman's choice simply due to her gender. Clearly you feel the same as you have only attacked on this thread. Actions speak louder than words. At least I'm honest.

At no stage have you articulated how a woman, who can work, has no obstacles to doing som be they financial or children with AD, can be a rad fem on the subject of working women. You've simply stated they are then insulted any woman who works.

I agree a woman has a right to chose. I respect that right as I've said all along, for many people it's everyone for themselves. Do I respect the actual choice itself. On some base level, no, not when it's a purely personal choice with nothing else driving it. because I perceive it as perpetuating a patriarchal society if you have your husband pay for you whilst you make sure he can progress in his career unhindered by the requirements of parenthood and ensure he has an advantage over any working mother. In this context you're actively enabling a patriachy.

I've watched too many women struggle with their careers and parent hood. And I've watched too many men be enabled by their wives and not have those struggles and get promoted for it. I've seen one two many threads on here where posters shout "you're entitled to half, he wouldn't have had his career if it wasn't for you taking care of the kids and home".

Those posters are right. He wouldn't have. Just like most working mothers don't have. But the stay at home mum in this context made sure he had the advantage his female colleagues.

Do what you wish. Make the right decisions for your family. But don't expect everyone to respect it.

At no stage have you articulated how a woman, who can work, has no obstacles to doing som be they financial or children with AD, can be a rad fem on the subject of working women. You've simply stated they are then insulted any woman who works.

I don't understand what you are accusing me of here.

I'm not accusing you. I just want to understand.

You are stating a woman who has no obstacles to working, be they financial or children with AN, and choses to stay home whilst her husband works, can be a rad fem on the subject of working women.

I'm asking how? Rad fem is a desire to restructure society to remove any hint of a patriarchy. How are these women doing this?

In this I'm genuinely not being goady. I simply don't understand how this choice can be perceived as radical feminism.

Way to ruin a thread by making it sahm v wohm ffs when we’d pulled it back.

I’d imagine the number of sahm who genuinely have a free choice between not working at all and having a well paid career and then choosing with their free choice to stay at home to facilitate a man in the workplace is teeny tiny. Perhaps you meet more of them in social circles where there is a lot of money and privilege swilling around - as someone not in these circles the sahm I meet are self employed and fitting very part time stuff round their dc or waiting to get enough state paid childcare that they can afford to go back to work.

You are stating a woman who has no obstacles to working, be they financial or children with AN, and choses to stay home whilst her husband works, can be a rad fem on the subject of working women.

I'm asking how? Rad fem is a desire to restructure society to remove any hint of a patriarchy. How are these women doing this?

By having a different but equal role to other radical feminists. She can reduce her collusion with the patriarchal capitalist system by reducing consumption of paid goods and services for her and her family. Allowing them to live on a reduced, single, income.

And I am assuming the SAHM has worked. She knows what obstacles she will come up against when trying to juggle career and family. All that happened is she decided to step away from them, not attempt to juggle.

I don't understand what you are accusing me of here

Are you serious? You are the poster who accused women who purchase childcare of exploiting other women.

By having a different but equal role to other radical feminists. She can reduce her collusion with the patriarchal capitalist system by reducing consumption of paid goods and services for her and her family. Allowing them to live on a reduced, single, income

Says the woman who did very well out of the patriarchical capitalism system which gave her the opportunity of buying property when house prices were a lot cheaper when we bought our house. Mortgages were easier to come by. A relocation grant funded our initial deposit on our first house

Yet at the same pointing out ways in which she does not contribute to the patriarchal capitalist society.

I am one of those sahm that Bluntness wouldn't speak to at parties. I have school aged dc, none with additional needs and I have facilitated my dh's career. I'll hold my hands up and say that my choice has given dh an advantage in the workplace. I do wonder if Bluntness would talk to my husband (and other men like him) at parties, given that he is the one who is 'benefitting' from the patriarchy. The thing though, is back when I was a wohm ( when I had 1 dc), I was a facilitated woman as much as my dh is a facilitated man - my parents did all my childcare (for free) and my dad even drove me to work when he picked up my baby in the morning. As a wohm, I really wasn't doing anything more for non facilitated wohm than I have as a sahm. But Bluntness would have spokrn to me and valued my opinions as a fellow working woman, even though there is no appreciable difference between who I was and who I am now! I am not unusual in having had a lot of support. And I don't think it is unreasonable to say that all of us are facilitated unless we are totally self sufficient. Some of us are lucky with family support, others buy their ability to balance work and family life. And it's true that often the people doing the facilitating are not the best paid and a huge number of these lower paid workers are women. It is the nature of capitalist society and we are all just trying to live the best lives we can.

I don't think my dh really is benefitting from this system, in that although he does well at work I do not really believe that working long hours etc is the best way of life. Which is where the rad fem sahm bit comes in for me. I believe life for all would be much improved with total dismantlement of the patriarchy, men included. My dh doesn't really want to work long hours, be away from his kids etc, but our other life choices and the society in which we live, have made it this way.
I didn't want to have just one child, for example. So my life was never going to be the same as it is for Bluntness.

Lass, I've never claimed to be living a perfect life with reference to radical feminism. I don't believe there are many that do or even can. I said so numerous times upthread.

By having a different but equal role to other radical feminists. She can reduce her collusion with the patriarchal capitalist system by reducing consumption of paid goods and services for her and her family. Allowing them to live on a reduced, single, income

I don't understand this logic. Nearly all families with a stay at home mother, live off a single salary, the mans. The woman only does it in this context becayse they can live off the mans income. Her being home with the kids allows the man to go be the breadwinner unhindered. How is this radically changing society so there is no patriachy?

I can't understand what your saying, Your explanation a
Pears to be in your opinionit's radically feminist and changing society because you live off the mans wages? Seriously? You think this is radically feminist? You don't see that as the very scenario we are trying to change?

Sorry typos.

It should read, your opinion appears to be its radically feminist And changing society because you live off a mans wages.

Lass, I've never claimed to be living a perfect life with reference to radical feminism

Straw man. I never said you did. For the umpteenth time I have zero interest in whether you or any one else is living their life in conformity with radical feminist principles.

My issue with you is the sheer hypocrisy in your (a) nodding along with posts such as women should support each other and saying you have always done this coupled with your offensive comments about women who pay for domestic help and (b) the cant about not contributing to the patriarchical capitalism system after you have benefited from it.

.I do wonder if Bluntness would talk to my husband (and other men like him) at parties

Good question and the answer is i treat them the same. I have no interest in men who have a woman at home enabling them to perpetuate a patriarchal society. I much prefer to converse with men whose wives or partners work and they themselves take 50 percent of the childcare.

Gender isn't relevant to me here, because both the man and the woman in this context are doing their level best to capitalise on and perpetuate a patriachy. They are both at it and equally guilty in my eyes.