Is choosing to be a SAHM a feminist decision?

[user1471506568]

Ok so I'm a SAHM and would also strongly identify as a radical feminist although admittedly I still am learning about all of this. I understand that liberal feminism is more about the individual as opposed to the class movement so under that philosophy being a SAHM is an acceptable feminist decision but I'm confused about the rad fem stance.

I can see how from a financial perspective being a SAHM is a bit of a backward step for feminism, but this is such a narrow view and I don't think money is the only measure of worth . In fact it strikes me as an extremely patriarchal measure where the balance will always be tipped to men earning more due to women having children.

I would be really interested in people's views on this. Can I be a radical feminist and a SAHM or am I letting down the class movement?

NB: Please don't take this as negative judgement of any working mothers as I respect everyone's decision to do what's best for them.

Yass. Is that all you see as spending money, spa days and shooing sprees. Because I see it as paying for things like the food you eat, the clothes you wear, the toiletries you use

So what's the problem if the OP is doing this with what you perceive to be his money?

I don't see how a radical perspective could say a sahm as a fact by itself was an unfeminist thing to do. It's still work, and largely unrecognised and unrewarded, like all caring work.

I always thought that feminism was not about saying we need to be more like men but more that all the work we do in society be recognised and celebrated - it's necessary and a lot of other people's work depends on that mostly unpaid hard slog.

I think more of the objection would come from the reinforcing of gender norms that limit.

I did not say she could not be a radical feminist on other issues.

But, as I said earlier, would you say the same to a woman who was being exploited in the workplace and also took on the lion's share of the parenting as her estranged ex husband did very little? She is being just as exploited or maybe even more.

I think as a feminist I would like to see a society where parents could discuss and agree what works best for them and their children without being influenced by patriarchal notions about appropriate gender roles or by extreme opinions about only paid work having value or bringing entitlements to express opinions.
I say that as a very career driven person. My dh quite happily drprioritised his career when we had kids. Lots of people thought and still think that was very odd but for us it seems to work.

“I'm going to write it again for the last time. I said she could be a radical feminist but not on certain issues, such as equal parenting, equal rights for mothers in thr work place etc etc.”

That’s like saying you can’t be supportive of equal rights based on ethnicity, because you’re not black!

I've got to get ready and go for a dinner reception.

Many will know my posting style, I will state my opinion and I'm good with anyone disagreeing with it. My opinion stands. I would not listen to the opinion of a woman who was and always had been a stay at home parent on the subject of the rights of mothers in thr workplace eyc. I would listen to the opinion of a working mother who was experiencing it.

It's fine to not like that opinion. Go for it..

Bluntness, you are devaluing the work needed to successfully care and raise children. Would you say a woman caring for elderly parents wasn't capable of being a radical feminist on that issue?

I’m in the same situation OP and I often wonder about this. How I see it, it wouldn’t matter who earned the money- we’ve got lots of kids close together so one of us stays at home. It just happens he earns more money so he goes to work.

(Although don’t get me started on why he earns more. As a feminist, this particular bit really gets my goat!!)

Feminism is based round the theory that women should have freedom of choice. I don’t think it matters whether that choice is going to work or doing the household tasks.

Ah, that's the liberal feminist stance. That giving women the choice is a feminist aim in itself, and that there lies the point at which you have to accept that a woman might use that choice to stick to fingers up to feminism! Not saying that's what SAHMs do by the way, just expanding.

Radical femism, as far as I understand it (a radical feminist would no doubt expression it better) sees the impact an individual choice makes on the class on women and uses that to judge it against.

I think you can be a radical feminist and accept that there's a limit to which you can adequately live your ideals though. I think that's fine.

It's not for me though, that's why I'm liberal. I like a feminism I can live every day.

I actually think it is anti feminist and counterproductive to devalue traditional female (stereotyped) roles because it perpetuates the disadvantage for anyone taking on these roles. Lack of equality in the workplace means it is still often the woman who chooses to stay at home as their husband's career is more lucrative. So women are at a double disadvantage.

If child rearing was more valued in society then you can bet more men would take on this role. Which in turn would mean more equal working conditions as there would be more women in authority the workplace.

*TWO fingers

Bluntness
but a SAH parent might have very useful insight into why they felt a workplace wasn't compatible with rearing children and what changes the workplace could have made that would have let them work
a SAH parent might have useful views of the realism of equal parenting if eg your DH is in the armed forces and far, far away
a SAH parent might have had many years work experience where they experienced inequality that is still relevant
So i'm still interested

Before I became a SAHP I researched and wrote the maternity policy for the very large company I worked for. I also lobbied hard to get the directors to agree it. It was extremely radical 25 years ago (5 year career breaks etc) and is probably better than most companies have today.

The idea that as soon as I became a SAHM my opinions on the subject would be considered irrelevant by another woman is quite shocking.

Curious bluntness - it's not a trick or a not so veiled attempt to catch you out, promise! - I wonder if I can be considered a radical feminist on employment issues? As I'm disabled and don't work because of that. I still have worked and do have previous experience of working, but so does a sahm?

Or on equal parenting? DH is by far the one who does more as there's a lot I can't. Does that mean I can't be considered radfem on parenting by your view?

And re money, technically as I'm the ill one, DH lives off me

I can't see that it makes a difference to someone having a rad fem stance. It seems to me that working mothers are often mainly relying on low paid or unpaid women (childcare workers and grannies). I have a friend who - along with her friends - have hugely cut down on their hours in order to provide childcare for their grandchildren as their children cannot afford childcare at the same time they are being told their pensions are changing. It is simply not seen as a possibility that their husbands would do that.

FWIW I can see what Bluntness is saying; you can certainly believe in radical femism without living like an archetypal radical feminist, but we all do tend to give more weight to those who are prepared to practice what they preach.

Surely, though, it’s how society views the stay at home role though which is the problem? It seems here that radical feminists support equal parenting so “permit”, therefore, the idea of a male SAHP but not a female one. That’s all wrong.

When I was a SAHM whose career was decimated basically because she had babies, believe me I had plenty to say on equality in the workplace.

I'm now working again but earning 20 times less than my DH due to taking a job that fits around my family, all of which IMO is a direct result of living in a patriarchal society. So I'm working but still mostly spending 'his' money on bills and food. Am I allowed an opinion on equality now?

liltingleaf basically said everything I wanted to say.

I also think there's a class element to the whole thing...not everyone has a stimulating career they want to go back to. Looking after DC for me would be more stimulating/give me more freedom day to day than lots of the jobs I've had.

Yy miralis - if we were being purists I could argue that the woman who goes out to work leaving the child in low paid (maj female) childcare, with a low paid (maj female) cleaner isn't necessarily a better feminist than a sahm.

But luckily we're not purists, and recognise that everyone does what they need to in order to get by, reconciling their 'unfeminist' choices in the context in which they are made

So if a single mother made a choice to SAH because of some issue with her child(ren), would that be unfeminist? Because it's the State's money and not 'his'?

But a married/cohabiting woman doing so is a chattel?

I actually think it is anti feminist and counterproductive to devalue traditional female (stereotyped) roles

I totally agree with this ^^

I work. We have a very equal distribution of labour both paid and domestic between DH and me. I would very much describe myself as a radical feminist.

However I was in a cafe earlier today watching a woman interacting with her teeny infant child. I had a pang about how fucked up a world we live in where that work is undervalued to such an extent that typically parents are not facilitated in doing it themselves and instead are valued on their economic value.

In some ways I think it is pure capitalist patriarchy that we are having conversations like this at all. Both, capitalism and the patriarchy, in their own way undervalue women and the work they do. Having principles is all well and good but we all have to weigh up our own life circumstances and see where our priorities lie and I can imagine that there are very few people out there who can afford, in terms of personal cost not money, to make every decision a feminist one.

I haven’t read the second page in its entirety but I tend to agree with Bluntness.
I think we should all at least strive for more equality and for me that means both parents sharing the domestic load AND both parents earning a living to pay for outgoings. An ideal model (I think) would be both parents working part time. That’s what we have done even though we would probably be financially no worse off if one of us was a SAHP and the other had their career facilitated.

I think the problem with the SAHM model is that it does overall make the current patriarchal working set up more sustainable.

A real bugbear of mine is women who say that their husband couldn’t possibly do their very important job without the full time support of another non working person. Now that may or may not be correct at he individual level. It’s absolutely not necessary at the macro level.

I earn six figures and leave work at 4.30 so I’m home to have dinner with my DS. One of the things that makes this so bloody difficult is all the men hanging around - they don’t give a shiny shite if they miss bedtime and they quite happily waste masses of time in the day then leave late.

The model of one person entirely absolving themselves of Home duties is, quite frankly, bullshit.

I agree with the PP who said that she doesn’t think we should be trying to be men. I think that’s spot on. But the only way to achieve this that I can see is hanging in there at work and insisting it’s done differently.

Big caveat - no single person can possibly be expected to disadvantage themselves or their family to prove a point. So where that leaves us I don’t know!

Until care labour - both paid and unpaid - is counted properly in economic modelling, this question is always going to get asked.

My DH was a SAHD for six years. Was this a feminist choice because he is a man and men are less likely to be the caregivers?

No. It was a purely economic choice. I earned a bit more than he did and he was able to get a few hours on a part-time basis at more money than I would have been able to.