Trans debate. What doe people want?

[PinkbicyclesinBerlin]

I live in a country with self id for trans gender people.

Last week for the first time I spotted gender neutral toilets in my work place. I used one of them because it is a fully walled toilet so no issue there. There are also male and female only toilets which I will also continue to use. Women cannot be treated by trans HCPs if it undermines their own dignity and if you go to prison it is to the prison of your birth sex not gender. As far as I am concerned these are some of the realistic limitations to put on self ID but I am not opposed to self ID in principle.

Is this the answer to self ID start lobbying your MEPs to have restrictions that work for everyone and ignore the loud trans narratives that only speak for a tiny minority of clearly misogynistic men and not all of trans women.

Sorry MPs (MEPs whole other controversial debate there)

I'd like the debate to move on from toilets. I'd like policy makers to understand that a man does not have the same experiences and issues as women, despite his gender identity.

If we are to compromise and have a sub set of men to be seen as women in certain circumstances, who is going to decide which circumstances are included and which are not. If one subset of men are allowed 'in', why not all men?

I don't see that it benefits me or my daughter to actively campaign to reduce women only facilities and spaces.

Hi you said Women cannot be treated by trans HCPs if it undermines their own dignity. How does that work in practice? Is that specified when you make your appointment for health care, for instance?

I'd like to see more unisex toilets, but not as a replacement for sex-segregated ones.

I will only take my young daughters into female-only toilets and changing rooms, I want the right to continue to do that.

I want prisons to be sex-segregated unless a transwoman has had sexual reassignment surgery. AFAIK there's no drive for transmen to have access to male prisons (I wonder why), so not sure that's even an issue.

Basically, identify how you want, wear and call yourself whatever you want - just don't take sex-segregated spaces away from women. We need them.

I guess that is what I am wondering, where are the realistic compromises? I think
acknowledging transgender people are not being served well currently and trying to improve on that but with realistic limitations. That is what has happened so far in Ireland. Admittedly it doesn’t seem to have been tested too far but so far so good.

One same as of a male HCP attended to you and you wanted to change to a female HCP. Women are entitled to request a born woman.

Why does transpeople not being served well mean that women have to compromise?

I haven’t through through what issues should be debated, but what I would definitely want is for the word “transphobic” to be banned from all discussions as it has now lost all meaning.

Why does transpeople not being served well mean that women have to compromise?

In my own workplace it was the men’s toilets that were made gender neutral. I think compromise comes from everyone when adjusting for a group who are not currently being served well.

Not all men’s toilets btw, just one set out of lots of men’s toilets in the very large building establishment.

I would like trans people to first accept they do not automatically become a man or woman just by saying the word three times and clicking their heels. Secondly to stop making a land grab on secure places they like the look of.

I have no issue with GRC transwomen using women’s spaces. I have no issue with unisex toilets. What pisses me off is penises in women’s spaces and not being allowed to say anything about it without being described as a bigot.

Ok, we've solved the toilet problem. Men's become gender neutral and women's stay female only. Job done.

I often get frustrated reading these debates as I find it difficult to establish a "side" to take.
I see many advantages in gender-neutral toilets, as long as the cubicles provide sufficient privacy, and the spaces are well-lit. I add the latter because for some sexual predators, a gloomy corridor is an opportunity, particularly if near a lockable space.
In terms of prisons, I'm not so sure. If someone is FtM, identifies as M, has had surgery to have a male body (or as near to as possible), I'd be wondering how they would be treated in a masculine environment. Assuming that nobody assaulted them, or abused them, why should they not be with the gender they have become? The same applies with MtF. If they have no penis, and they have breasts, they live and function in society as F, then placing them in the company of males, to me, seems wrong.
If, however, we are talking of the minority who 'claim' a gender because they allegedly to identify with it, but act as their birth sex (the often-mentioned 'bloke in a dress who says he identifies as female') then this is not the same.
I don't know many transvestites - the only person I know who fits this category is a younger woman of my acquaintance who dresses as a male. She spends time with women, romantically, not with men. However, she says she is a woman, despite her clothing.
I know a few MtF transgender people. They were born male. They have had surgery to make their bodies as female as possible. They spend time with women, not romantically, but within a friendship & support setting. They would say that they are women, and, when I have spent any time with them, I feel that they are as female as I am. For what it's worth, none of the MtF people I know are in a romantic relationship.

Why does transpeople not being served well mean that women have to compromise?

^^This. Also, I think the question of whether transpeople are not well served needs to be looked at. Many people are not well served at the moment. Those who shout loudest are not necessarily those most in need. I am sure there are trans issues that could be improved. I’m not convinced that being able to legally claim you are the opposite sex without any gate keeping or evidence is one of them.

I support moves that make life easier for people who are gender non conforming (e.g. dress codes that don’t require gender conformity, additional unisex facilities, anti discrimination legislation).

I am strongly against any legislation or policy that defines ‘female’ or ‘male’ as an identity rather than a physical description. I realise that this creates difficulties for some trans people, but I am more concerned about the harm that gender stereotypes have done to all men and women.

I want the idea of trans-gender to be universally recognised for the unscientific, misogynistic, homophobic, ideological lie that it is.

I want it to be universally recognised that you cannot change your sex.

I want it to be universally recognised that gender dysphoria is a mental illness that should be treated with sympathy and compassion, just like any mental illness.

I want it to be universally recognised that sex and gender are recognised at birth, not assigned.

I want it to be universally recognised that nobody should be obliged to behave in gender-stereotyped way.

I want it to be universally recognised that we have freedom of speech and freedom of expression, no matter our sex.

Hi Pink which is it? same as of a male HCP attended to you ie wait until the service starts and challenge the professional or Women are entitled to request a born woman so at the time of booking?

I think that the setup the OP is describing sounds a lot more reasonable than what is currently being pushed in England, where it generally seems to be women's spaces that are relabelled as gender neutral.

I am not worried about "genuine" trans people (by which I mean people who have undergone, are undergoing, or have a plan in place to go through gender reassignment). I am concerned by the AGPs - I don't consent to be part of their sex life, however they may argue it doesn't affect me. However I am primarily concerned by sex criminals who seek to use the opportunity to access women's spaces. This has already been documented in countries / companies that have changed their law / policy. I cannot understand why the trans community are not more concerned about this; they are the ones who are being used as cover, and who potentially will face public backlash on a group & individual basis, for crimes they didn't commit.

Men to stay men, women to stay women, wear what the fuck you want.

Repeal of the ridiculous Gender Recognition Act.

Oh yes - I also want to be able to discuss things like this in public, under my real name, without the fear that I'll get a black eye for my troubles.

I also want there to be some recognition of the possibility that gender dysphoria may be a psychological condition. And that, as such, it would be wise to consider counselling therapy instead of surgery? Is anyone aware of any other dysphoria that is treated with medical options, as opposed to counselling / other therapies?

Hi Pink which is it? same as of a male HCP attended to you ie wait until the service starts and challenge the professional or Women are entitled to request a born woman so at the time of booking?

Both I am sure One so for example if I am booking a smear I can go to a female doctor. In labour I was attended by a male midwife, if it had bothered me I could have requested a female.

^Men to stay men, women to stay women, wear what the fuck you want.

Repeal of the ridiculous Gender Recognition Act.^

Good summary, TERFragetteCity

And in your country you wouldn’t be accused of transphobia if you refused a midwife you thought had male biology?

And in your country you wouldn’t be accused of transphobia if you refused a midwife you thought had male biology?

On Twitter maybe. In the labour ward, absolutely not.

What are men doing to compromise? Oh yeah, fuck all.