Trans debate. What doe people want?

[PinkbicyclesinBerlin]

I live in a country with self id for trans gender people.

Last week for the first time I spotted gender neutral toilets in my work place. I used one of them because it is a fully walled toilet so no issue there. There are also male and female only toilets which I will also continue to use. Women cannot be treated by trans HCPs if it undermines their own dignity and if you go to prison it is to the prison of your birth sex not gender. As far as I am concerned these are some of the realistic limitations to put on self ID but I am not opposed to self ID in principle.

Is this the answer to self ID start lobbying your MEPs to have restrictions that work for everyone and ignore the loud trans narratives that only speak for a tiny minority of clearly misogynistic men and not all of trans women.

OP, I think your system sounds fine. I am happy with gender-neutral toilets etc if FTMs do not feel comfortable using the men's. As long as there are women only ones as well.

I am also happy with women being allowed to request a biological woman for healthcare and that prisons are segregated by biological sex. Seems fine to me.

The problem is that the new law would not allow that level of choice. However, your system sounds something like an ideal solution whereby the rights of all are respected. I would also like a ban on promotion of trans ideology in schools and very strict penalties to be applied to anyone who supplies minors with hormone treatments.

1. to be able to talk about the issue and ask questions without being accused of transphobia or, more commonly being scared to voice an opinion IRL in the first place and effectively being silenced.

2. to remove the ridiculously rigid gender stereotypes which trans supporters seem to be imposing on children now and which serve to limit girls who would otherwise be quite happy being girls.

I think self-ID presents some safety concerns that don't seem to be answered, but I do think that he notion of trans people having to 'prove' their gender to the government has contributed to people getting so boxed in by gender stereotypes.

It seems like people would have just done and worn their own thing before the GRA now feel they've had to act hyper femme or macho to prove they are 'living as their identified gender'.to the gender recognition panel - I mean, how are you supposed to prove that without conforming to gender stereotypes? So I blame the government for 1) equating gender to sex and 2) imposing GRA rules that necessarily encourage harmful gender stereotypes and think that something needs to change.

I should add- I would also not want self-ID and I would want sports to be strictly regulated according to sex. Absolutely no exceptions.

Basically, I want biological sex to remain a legal category and for allowance of segregation and different treatment on the ground of biological sex, NOT gender identity.

I would also want all statistics and records to be based on biological sex, so no more talk of female rapists and increase in sex-crimes.

I would want those who want to present as the opposite sex to feel comfortable and free of discrimination and harassment. However, that does NOT extend to everyone else pretending that they ARE the opposite sex. Just no.

Oh and I would want Owen Jones to be sent to an island very far away. But that's just wishful thinking.

I want the liberation of women and girls from patriarchy.

Since it's clear that the political wing of the current transgender movement is just the new branding for men's rights activism, I have no interest in it achieving any of its aims at all. And I hope wider society wakes up to the deeply regressive and unpleasant truth of this movement very soon so we can put a very firm stop to it.

(I'm also coming to the conclusion that the old school transsexuals, some of whom post here and are lovely, should probably be thinking of separating themselves from the term "trans" and form their own, separate, movement.)

I want gatekeeping. Proper gate-keeping

Id like people's sex to be valued and it understood how and why it matters and it can't be something you pretend doesn't exist or can be changed.

Thats all really.

As far as I can see, in the UK, there isn't really "in principle" - because what gender someone decides they are doesn't mean anything because gender is a social construct. All the problems are in practice not in principle.

Yes and it could well turn out to be the case that there are implementation issues over time in Ireland on this but not so far. I think culturally Ireland is still a slightly more conservative country. I don’t think there would be much of a political appetite to push an unrealistic trans narrative.

In short, I want a complete decoupling of gender and sex.

@PinkbicyclesinBerlin

same as of a male HCP attended to you and you wanted to change to a female HCP. Women are entitled to request a born woman.

So, do they have to tell you upfront (breach of people's privacy) or are you allowed to ask and then they tell you (same, only more intrusive in some ways)?

Essentially, how do you know if someone is not a born woman?

Among other things, I’d like to not have to read this utter shit as the very first search result when I Google ‘terf’

TERF is an acronym for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Sometimes, "exclusionary" is expanded as "eliminationist" or "exterminationist" instead to more accurately convey the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people, specifically trans people who were coercively assigned male at birth.

I want to understand (1)why it is that a tiny minority of trans people seem to be able to bully so many into accepting the delusion that you can change sex.

I also want to understand (2)why so many of the majority are worried about being called TERFs or bigots if they state scientific facts.

I suspect (1) actually follows from (2).

Me, I don't care what I'm called. Sticks and stones etc.....

The best solution is a third space. TRAs' main argument is they need safety from violence, although I suspect they won't consider a third space because it would invalidate their delusion of being women.
I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct? And what are they actually due to? Threat of violence, lack of acceptance?
I fear nothing good will come out of this obssession with being accepted as women. Unless there is so much cash behind this ideology they will socially engineer people into acceptance.

I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct?

Who knows, and how odd that we can separate out stats for trans 'women' (TIM) suicides but not for trans 'women' sex offenders, eh? They have to be women, but when it's suicide suddenly the 'trans' bit is important to them!?

@terfsRus Unless there is so much cash behind this ideology they will socially engineer people into acceptance.

My fear also.

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

The original claim that 41% of trans-people have attempted suicide was misleading. Deliberately.

They asserted it was from a cohort of 2000, when in actual fact it was from a cohort of 27.

Statistically insignificant.

And if 2000 children a year are showing up at gender clinics, that would translate the death of three a week. When the Tavistock have said there's only been one suicide in 10 years.

However, from what I can gather, self harm and suicide ideation is prevalent amongst the trans-community, as it is amongst other marginalised groups. All LGB, the disabled, and people with comorbid issues, etc.

The recent study by Stonewall said that of the respondents who claimed suicide attempts half were disabled.

But as they didn't provide, or refused to provide, any further information, no real conclusion can be drawn. Despite what would look like an urgent need to do so.

There is no doubt that marginalised groups are suffering, and it needs to be investigated. But claiming it only happens to trans people is wrong.

There is the additional issue of the Samaritans expressly saying that talking about it is counter-productive. It leads to contagion.

So using it as leverage is unethical.

But that does not stop trans pressure groups talking about it at every opportunity.

The principle of Self ID is that of any other faith based belief system.
The requirement in law that everyone practice the rituals of this one belief system is the point where their fist hits our nose.

I've heard about contagion. That is the only explanation as to how this has spread like wildfire (unless it's always been there and I TOTALLY missed it?). The fact that so many TIMs (and not TIFs) are STEM/ computer/ gaming experts also makes me wonder if that hasn't been a factor as well.

Monstrous I have read that article, but I still wonder what the endgame is. There are kids being indoctrinated in this and I can't think why. And the hounding of women like it's Witchfinder General 2.0 -
I fear we can't stop this legislation from passing, but it's crucial to fight for it to be fair to women and to transgender people as well.

Essentially, how do you know if someone is not a born woman?
ODFOD

this woman knew

We all know.
The vanishing minority of transwomen who "pass" so as not to be recognised as male are the red herring of the whole debate.

"There is the additional issue of the Samaritans expressly saying that talking about it is counter-productive. It leads to contagion. "

TRA seem to be immune from any social responsibility. They also seem to be able to say anything and not be held to account.

Some men view this as an opportunity to put women back in their place as dependent on men.
Others view it as an opportunity to transition away the gay and lesbians.
Still others view it as legal validation of their delusion that they are non men or non women or non binary.

I heard a lot about suicide stats but are they correct?

www.samaritans.org/about-us/our-research/facts-and-figures-about-suicide
This report by the Samaritans talks about the problems of suicide stats in general. Its pretty detailed and goes into detail about how they are by nature difficult to compile.

Notably they say:
^Be careful of small groups/populations
The size of populations should be considered when looking at suicide rates. Smaller populations often produce rates that are less reliable as the rates per 100,000 are based on small numbers. Therefore, differences in the number of suicides may have a bigger impact on the rate than in a larger population. An example of this might be suicide in older people (eg over 80 years), as the population size is lower than in younger age groups^

And

They state:
Reliability is affected by the multiple definitions of suicide. Silverman suggested that a decade ago, there were more than 27 definitions of suicide used in the research literature. Today, the problem of defining and classifying suicide and suicidal behaviours in research is still a problem which hinders our understanding of the subject

In other words you have to know methodology and be particularly aware of what you are looking at, and whether the data you are looking at, is actually comparable at all.

It really does highlight how easy it is to manipulate and misrepresent suicide rates.

Red thanks will look through - so it seems that people like P Lees and S Faye are just spreading misinfo unchallenged.

@terfsRus

As to the endgame, yeah I wonder too. Three possibilities?

1. Bored billionaire blokes ( like Soros ) who would like to destabilize society for shits and giggles (or as they put it to promote globalization), as it will never affect them.

1. Tons of money to be had from investing in Big Pharma due to the drugging of transitioners.

1. MRAs wanting to see women 'back in their place', and men taking over all positions of power/authority again.

The Samaritans also talk about how coroners record verdicts and are often influenced in how they record a death by social pressure. They will often record as accidental rather than suicide because of cultural taboos or sensitivity to family. Leading to under reporting.

I said on another thread that this might also lead to another issue: where there is pressure to record a death as suicide or an expectation that a death will be suicide within a particular community. Leading to reporting having a much lower level of under reporting than the population as a whole.

The report states that its already felt that the level of suicide in females is probably more susceptible to under reporting than the level of suicide for males because they attempt suicide in different ways.

@patodp - don't tell me to fuck off. I was making a valid point. You can't choose one sentence as if it represents my whole post, which was a reply to something else.

Yes, obviously in the case you have chosen they knew, but I'm not sure that's always the case, though it wasn't the point I was making.

But, on that point, you can't possibly know if no TIMs pass as female, can you. It's like saying you can always spot when someone is wearing a wig. You can't.
I worked with a trans woman a couple of years ago and I had no idea until someone told me.

My point was, if you are entitled under the system the op is describing to request a woman, that means that a) it must be done at point of booking and b) everyone involved in the booking needs to know who is 'trans gender'. If you forget to request it, and are not asked, at what point do you find out if the person dealing with you is a woman, or a man in a dress?