Trans debate. What doe people want?

[PinkbicyclesinBerlin]

I live in a country with self id for trans gender people.

Last week for the first time I spotted gender neutral toilets in my work place. I used one of them because it is a fully walled toilet so no issue there. There are also male and female only toilets which I will also continue to use. Women cannot be treated by trans HCPs if it undermines their own dignity and if you go to prison it is to the prison of your birth sex not gender. As far as I am concerned these are some of the realistic limitations to put on self ID but I am not opposed to self ID in principle.

Is this the answer to self ID start lobbying your MEPs to have restrictions that work for everyone and ignore the loud trans narratives that only speak for a tiny minority of clearly misogynistic men and not all of trans women.

I want legislation and best practice to be based on objectivity and rational argument

So much of the current rhetoric is about being part of a club, standing shoulder to shoulder with your ‘sisters’ and claiming that ‘trans women are women’. It’s as though being a woman is just like being in an ad for tampons - all girl power and rollerskating, although of course to mention menstruation is transphobic.

But women aren’t all lovely and don’t necessarily have anything in common except their biology. Trans women and women don’t even have that in common.

How do you legislate effectively to protect an amorphous group who have nothing in common except their humanity and who have very different needs?

Is anyone aware of any other dysphoria that is treated with medical options, as opposed to counselling / other therapies?

Is anyone aware of any other dysphoria that is validated, rather than treated?!

VaguelyAware 'gender dysphoria' literally means dissatisfied with one's gender. Body dysmorphia is the closest thing to gender dysphoria I can think of, which gets treated with counselling and therapy, often alongside medication to treat underlying anxiety and mental health issues. You certainly won't find your GP confirming whatever you're dysmorphic about as something that is 'wrong' with you.

I want the ideology to be seen for the deeply regressive movement it is.

I want people to understand gender is a set of societal imposed rules.

That benefit men and disadvantage women. Whether they transition or not. The scales still fall one way.

I would like to see gender non conformity celebrated.

I would like to see women less disadvantaged on the basis of their sex and for this to be more widely acknowledged. And that deciding that gender is an inner essence contributes to women's disadvantage.

I would like the trans ideology exposed for the men's rights activism it is.

And finally, I would like the money, time, resources that are currently going into this nonsense to be diverted into research about the causes of gender dysphoria.

And for it to remain firmly in the realm of a medical condition.

I would like some more awareness in mainstream media and political parties that the trans movement has a big problem with misogyny and targeted abuse of women -- especially online.
The vast majority of women I know are hugely sympathetic to genuine trans people.
Most of us know ordinary transmen and women in our lives, and actual prejudice against them is only going to made worse by the loudmouth misogynists currently leading the trans movement.
I really do think that we are capable of civilised and respectful debate on how to protect and support trans people, and introduce legal protections too but the current environment of abuse and bullying of women is making that impossible.

My main concern is the rigid definition of gender - which seems to be an essential part of transgender ideology - and its effect on young women and girls.

Basically the whole pink brain/blue brain narrative that accompanies the transgender narrative.

I’m also concerned that the rights of a transgender person seem to trump those of other people - especially young women and girls.

For example - is a 13 year old girl expected to accept sharing dormitory space with a transgender girl (who is still biologically a teenage boy) and is she required to feel ok about this? Despite all the pressures brought about by puberty - starting periods, developing breasts etc - which mean she might be uncomfortable with this?

And as a parent -

I do not have the right to know if my child has decided to be transgender at school.

I do not have the right to question this transgender approach to what my child might be experiencing (are they just gay? Has something traumatic happened that means they no longer want to be a girl or boy?)

I do not have the right to question my daughter sharing a bedroom/bathroom with a biological male.

In the end:
I don’t care if Arthur wants to be Martha. I don’t care about toilets etc. I’ve no axe to grind against individuals. But I do care about this ideology -which has no scientific basis - being used to shape policy.

Why does transpeople not being served well mean that women have to compromise?

Exactly. They are men, worried about violence from other men. The solution is that men need to accept them into their spaces without violence, not displace the issue onto women, exposing them to potential violence.

I want:

Acknowledgment that biological sex is a reality
Acknowledgment that our current gender pigeonholes are too narrow and that a boy who likes dresses is just a boy who likes dresses, not a girl.
Complete ban on surgical and hormonal mutilation of children
The possibility of third spaces to be discussed if men won’t accept these men without violence into their spaces
Rejection of self ID.
Preservation of the current sex based exemptions to the equality act
Preservation and protection of single sex spaces and services (refuges, prisons, medical care, toilets) with potential third spaces as needed

Basically I want women’s rights to be upheld - there must be a way of protecting trans people from violence and discrimination that does not involve fucking over half the population

You have lost the meaning and use of word 'woman'.
In women's healthcare, it shouldn't be necessary to specify you mean 'woman from birth' or 'natal woman' if you ask for female staff.

And in your country you wouldn’t be accused of transphobia if you refused a midwife you thought had male biology?

That's being challenged in Ireland now. I know of TiM nurses demanding to be treated exactly the same as female nurses (ie no chaperoning no refusal etc) - they are quoting "you can't refuse treatment from a black nurse so ..."

Slippery slope.

And one major issue - SPORT

Shit'll hit the fan if an Irish olympic hopeful is beaten by a man.

Sonia O'Sullivan is interesting on this issue - or at least she was until she was forced to shut up (I presume anyway, she's gone silent).

I want spaces where women are vulnerable to be as safe as possible. I don't mind if they are changed to unisex as long as safety is designed in. Just opening them up to males is not acceptable to me.

I want individual women to be able to request a biological woman in circs where they are vulnerable, if they need to, without being shamed or called a bigot.

I want recognition that being female brings a unique set of experiences and challenges that males can never experience. And that women should be allowed to recognise and celebrate this. One of the ways I want this to happen is by keeping the word woman as "adult human female".

That's it for me. I don't think any of that is incompatible with trans rights, except if your definition of trans rights is an insistence that people literally become the sex they identify with. I can never be ok with that.

That's being challenged in Ireland now. I know of TiM nurses demanding to be treated exactly the same as female nurses (ie no chaperoning no refusal etc) - they are quoting "you can't refuse treatment from a black nurse so ..."

This is what concerns me about self ID being passed even with existing exemptions. The focus of TRAs emboldened by one victory will turn their focus to eliminating those exemptions so we will likely see a huge uptick in the targeting of refuges, women's healthcare etc...

I get angry that we're expected to remove the word "woman" from discussions about menstruation, breastfeeding etc in order be "inclusive" because "men have periods too"

I want people including trans people to recognise that transmen are women who identify as men, which is completely fine, more power to you. Women who identify as men are still women.

In order to be "inclusive" I do not see why we should all erase the ability to describe ourselves and reduce our identities to mere "people who have periods" or whatever.

Why can't trans people be "inclusive" and allow women to describe themselves? Why should we all have to give up our identities to accommodate a tiny minority?

I'd like everyone to recognise that transmen are women and transwomen are men.

That's being challenged in Ireland now. I know of TiM nurses demanding to be treated exactly the same as female nurses (ie no chaperoning no refusal etc) - they are quoting "you can't refuse treatment from a black nurse so ..."

Don't tell me it's not a men's rights movement.

They are completely devoid of any affinity for women.

How much contempt must you feel for women to force them to accept your, largely sexually motivated, validation above their own fear, in the name of progression.

I wouldn't have a problem with self-id if there were certain limitations in place like in OP's example. Prisons, sports, womens refuges come to mind.

there must be a way of protecting trans people from violence and discrimination that does not involve fucking over half the population

But in order to do this you have to be able to say that trans women and women are different, and that is currently impossible for any mainstream person in public life.

The slightest suggestion that being a woman has anything to do with having a vagina can leave you open to a torrent of abuse, not just from trolls but also from well known journalists in national newspapers.

Maryz culturally though I think shouting “transphobia” in Ireland will fall on completely deaf ears.

But in order to do this you have to be able to say that trans women and women are different

Exactly that then by the sounds of things cuts to the heart of it.

Decoupling the ‘trans women are women’ narrative.

I want transexual people to have their rights protected.

I do not want transvestites to have the right to be treated as the opposite sex than their biological sex in law. Because they are not the opposite sex and it is not hatespeak to say so.

I want any space - political, social, physical - that transexuals and transvetites carve out for themselves, to be take at the expense of men, not at the expense of women, who already have less space in the world.

One thing that annoys me greatly is talk of women and girls being able to assert their rights once they are in a vulnerable situation in the full knowledge of how much grief this might get them. Something like "but of course women can be free to be transphobes, it's completely up to them!"

It's coercion masquerading as free choice. It's gaslighting.

there must be a way of protecting trans people from violence and discrimination that does not involve fucking over half the population

There is. It's called Addressing Male Violence.

Every women only space or group exists for a reason. That reason doesn't disappear because transpeople exist. The reasons might seem trivial to many, even unnecessary, but they are important to some women.

If women are forced to include male people into these groups, its no longer doing what it's supposed to do - be a group for women.

Great thread, really well explained answers.

My biggest concern is with the messages that trans ideology sends out.

I want my daughters (and of course other young people) to know that:
Their bodies are fine as they are.
Everyone can choose the clothes, hobbies, friends, jobs etc with no regard to their sex or gender.
There is no such thing as 'boys' clothes' 'girls' toys etc. Liking something that isn't traditionally associated with your sex sows not make you trans.
If you do have gender dysphoria, you will unfortunately not ever be able to change your sex. Medication and sex change operations should be a last resort. It is not an easy path.

Basically, I want society to fight gender stereotypes. I want a world where a man in a dress and make up can walk around, go into men's spaces and no one even blinks an eye because it's accepted as a valid choice.

A world where a butch woman is just as butch woman, not a trans man in denial.

A world where transwomen and transmen are protected, accepted and valued as distant groups.

A world where women are recognised as biologically female, where we are able to discuss menstruation, pregnancy and all the things that affect us as biological females, without being accused of being transphobic, because everyone knows that transwomen are a separate group.

Protecting trans people from violence and discrimination is only part of the issue though.

There isn't any evidence to show that in the UK trans people are experiencing huge amounts of violence compared to places in SA (assuming that we are talking about actual violence and not misgendering or feminists talking about their reproductive organs).

I believe the UK and Europe in general is one of the safest places for trans people according to research here mirandayardley.com/en/peter-tatchell-and-the-assassination-of-the-womens-liberation-movement/

Everything I've seen on social media suggests that trans activists are far more concerned about being validated and forcing women to comply with their ever shifting goalposts.

Sure every now and then they remember to throw in a remembrance for transwomen of colour who have been murdered whilst engaging in sex work (often in another continent) but it strikes me as a mostly hollow gesture designed to prop up their real aim of co-opting and dominating women.

Thanks OP, this is a really interesting post as I have been wondering how other places manage.

I'm interest in this statement "As far as I am concerned these are some of the realistic limitations to put on self ID but I am not opposed to self ID in principle. "

As far as I can see, in the UK, there isn't really "in principle" - because what gender someone decides they are doesn't mean anything because gender is a social construct. All the problems are in practice not in principle.

Wear what the fuck you want but don’t force others to participate in your delusion