Trans debate. What doe people want?

[PinkbicyclesinBerlin]

I live in a country with self id for trans gender people.

Last week for the first time I spotted gender neutral toilets in my work place. I used one of them because it is a fully walled toilet so no issue there. There are also male and female only toilets which I will also continue to use. Women cannot be treated by trans HCPs if it undermines their own dignity and if you go to prison it is to the prison of your birth sex not gender. As far as I am concerned these are some of the realistic limitations to put on self ID but I am not opposed to self ID in principle.

Is this the answer to self ID start lobbying your MEPs to have restrictions that work for everyone and ignore the loud trans narratives that only speak for a tiny minority of clearly misogynistic men and not all of trans women.

Monstrous yes all pretty viable,

here's a fourth one I read somewhere but dismissed it as tin foil hat material:

1. Population control? With people being rendered infertile by drugs/ puberty blockers. I'm wondering if it's as tinfoilhat as I thought...

Mind you I don't hear about a lot of TRAs making waves in sub Saharan Africa or China. I heard something about compulsory transing for gays in Iran but not sure it's legit info.

If you request female only you should be able to trust that you get female only.

Gender identity should be irrelevant. It shouldn't matter how well you "pass" just in case to the sensitive eye, you don't.

(Especially as the majority really don't).

(3) seems the most likely, though (1) could also be the case - if you replaced 'Bored billionaire blokes' with 'The Russian state'.

No, I don't think (4): too small a group even for it to be about eugenics.

*@terfsRus * Yeah it's so hard to know what they are aiming for. I too keep thinking I'm conspiracy theorizing. Nah, these ideas seem ridiculous, don't they? BUT then you have a look around and see all the craziness and think again.

Pop control is as good a theory as all others. I've also seen speculation on keeping youngsters prepubescent for their lifetime. Makes me feel extremely ill that this is could be a potential endgame as well.

And I guess the reality is that it could be a compilation of some or all of these ideas.

I think the long term aim for many trans people is just acceptance. Realistically we live in a very gendered society and while we might wish for men to walk around in skirts and makeup and all women to embrace their masculinity, society isn’t set up to accept that. These people would be helped by anti discrimination laws and less promotion of binary gender stereotypes, but it’s not possible to say that cultural expectations will change any time soon. At the moment for many it’s just easier to identify as trans than gender nonconforming.

And then there are the very loud TRAs who promote gender stereotypes,couldn’t care less about the harm they do to others and just love the spotlight.

I think the long term aim for many trans people is just acceptance

So why do they always end up demanding that we redefine ourselves, eg as menstruators, or chestfeeding people, and insist that women have dicks too and talking about ovaries is hate speech and all that crap?

If it was just acceptance they wanted I would have no problem. But wft is the rest of this crap?

So why do they always end up demanding that we redefine ourselves, eg as menstruators, or chestfeeding people, and insist that women have dicks too and talking about ovaries is hate speech and all that crap

I’m not convinced that the people spouting crap represent all trans people, and I recognise that while it’s easy for me to say that people should just be gender non conforming, in reality it’s difficult.

Being trans means being part of a community with support, however dubious the support given may be. (Mermaids)

I absolutely reject the ideology that it is possible to change sex or that gender identities exist, but can also see that however much I might want male lawyers to happily paint their nails and wear skirts in court, in practice being gender nonconforming is very difficult.

Unfortunately I think trans ideology makes it much more difficult to be gender nonconforming, and trans ideology is increasingly being adopted by public bodies, despite it being unscientific and regressive.

I’m not convinced that the people spouting crap represent all trans people

They don't. But society at large, at the moment, perceives them to do so. This could be OK if people felt free to challenge this. But they don't. If they did they know they'd been likely to be torn to pieces on social media. Let alone what might happen to their jobs. And many people back away in fear of receiving similar treatment.

It's like the fucking Salem Witch Trials or something.

For some reason I've been feeling really angry about this all day. The sheer amount of gaslighting and lying involved makes me feel sick.

I think what we are seeing is a significant number of abusive men coming out of the closet and no longer pretending that they are nice guys.

Patodp - you are totally misunderstanding my point.

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2007/may/23/healthandwellbeing.health?__twitter_impression=true

This is an interesting Julie Bindel interview. I’m not saying this is typical of all trans people, but I suspect many parts of the story aren’t unusual.

Merrymouse " Realistically we live in a very gendered society and while we might wish for men to walk around in skirts and makeup and all women to embrace their masculinity, society isn’t set up to accept that"

About 15 years ago I worked in offices with men who wore skirts and makeup.

That's become less acceptable over the years sadly, and it's partly of trans issues. TRAs couldn't just let things be. My best mate is gay and used to wear make up and sometimes dresses but now doesn't as he wants to be sure no one thinks he's trans.

He also has the problem of his work toilets going unisex.

Op it sounds as if you know how this has worked in other countries where biological sex is still used as a separator, so in reality, does that just mean acceptance of people who aren't Barbie or GI Joe? Because that is not what TRAs want in England.

Also wondering what merry means by "women embracing their masculinity" what even is that!!

they are quoting "you can't refuse treatment from a black nurse so ..."

I'd have no reason to be afraid or nervous of a black, female nurse.

the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people

I recently attended a women's meeting and outside were a few very vocal trans supporters, holding placards saying things like "Terfs should be in the sea" "Death to Terfs."
So who, exactly, is advocating for harm.

You can refuse treatment from any HCP, you don't have to give a reason. You cannot be denied treatment because you have rejected an HCP.

If the new law is passed, we will not, effectively, the be able to request a female HCP. Oh, we'll be able to ask, but it will be meaningless. You won't know until you see the person. And then you might find yourself being told that there isn't another member of staff available, they'll have to cancel your appointment and put you back on the waiting list reschedule.

Also wondering what merry means by "women embracing their masculinity" what even is that

Women feeling free to look and behave in ways that are traditionally thought of as masculine. Of course gender is a social construct, but we all objectively know which behaviours are characterised as feminine and which masculine, and women tend to be punished for ‘masculine’ behaviour e.g. critiscism of female politicians because they are too ‘shrill’, ‘loud’ or bossy’.

I live in a semi rural part of the south coast. I can’t remember the last time I saw somebody who looked even vaguely goth, even amongst students at the local sixth form college, but on the other hand there has been a paradigm shift in acceptance of people who are gay or bi-sexual.

However, I suspect that as you suggest, society isn’t as comfortable with difference as it thinks, and apparent increased acceptance that everybody isn’t heterosexual masks increased panic about gender roles and increased pressure on people who don’t conform to fit into a trans box.

Maybe it was easier for men to embrace mainstream trends like Glam Rock and New Romanticism when the general public thought Elton John just hadn’t found the right woman.

Merrymouse "Women feeling free to look and behave in ways that are traditionally thought of as masculine"

If I've interpreted this right, this is something I think we had - mostly - for a very long period of time - and it's the fecking TRA pink and blue brain brigade who changed it, in an incredibly short space of time.

Women feeling free to look and behave in ways that are traditionally thought of as masculine

Who? Me? Cos I'm in my 50s and I've pretty much been doing that since I was teenager. Nobody told me I had a gendered soul and must take testosterone otherwise I'd be a suicide risk. And I've led a remarkably happy life.

How can anybody NOT see that we are going backwards.

merrymouse "Maybe it was easier for men to embrace mainstream trends like Glam Rock and New Romanticism when the general public thought Elton John just hadn’t found the right woman"

actually I can't make sense of this comment either. The period of time I'm talking about was long after this. I read this as a reference to some sort of concern around being gay, whereas I would say we've come a long way in accepting that, but the TRAs are also causing issues there - what with their idea that lesbians are anti trans if they don't want to deal with lady penis.

Going back to the OP comment "Is this the answer to self ID start lobbying your MEPs to have restrictions that work for everyone and ignore the loud trans narratives that only speak for a tiny minority of clearly misogynistic men and not all of trans women."

if you look at the narrative and the debate already held by MPs, none of this is about restrictions. And just to reiterate - I don't know what it is that trans people would be asking for if we put in those restrictions.

The restrictions we are asking for are exactly what they are objecting to. They don't want separate facilities. I have not heard any politician talk about separate facilities. The whole point is that, as with girl guides, the boy who IDs a girl thinks he should not have to declare himself and should be fine to sleep in a girls' dorm without the knowledge of their parents.

Prisoners with penises are launching appeals against being put in male prisons. Newspapers are already being asked to report self ID as if it's real, so murdering male fell runners are described as female.

I would presumably be strung up for hate crime if I said this out loud. But I work in mental health and a large proportion of the people I see who are 'trying out' being trans are not convincing... they self-harm and attempt suicide because they did before this, and would have done anyway. They are often damaged/abused/traumatized people with complex problems, who likely have a personality disorder. They see being trans as the next possible solution to feeling bad/wrong, fuelled by the media at the moment. Most of them aren't, and enter a self-obsessed, narcissistic bubble of entitlement, where they can't tolerate not getting what they want immediately, without getting to the bottom of their real issues. I see a tiny minority who really need to do it, and feel great benefit, and quietly go about it without banging the transphobia drum (which yes, is immensely irritating and irrelevant in a world where real wrongs done to real women (read Julie Bindel on FGM and our prioritizing of men wanting MtF surgery) seem to be lower priority.

socialworker222

Yes. And an important point to remember is that people can be abusive and a risk while at the same time being incredibly vulnerable themselves.

The current transgender movement is a magnet to such people and institutions in this country should be acting to both protect them and guard everybody else from them, not capitulating to them. All our institutions are taking the worst, most damaging, path possible.

And none of it helps actual dysphoric people even besides the threat to women's rights.

If I've interpreted this right, this is something I think we had - mostly - for a very long period of time - and it's the fecking TRA pink and blue brain brigade who changed it, in an incredibly short space of time.

I think men who don't like to associate with men who don't act like 'a normal bloke' have far more power in society than TRAs, and the pinkification of Marks and Spencers happened long before anybody had heard of Paris Lees, (And the vast majority of people in the UK have never heard of Paris Lees).

Some trans people are obviously very political, but I think politicians and media listen to them, not because they care about what they are saying, but because at root politicians and some media organisations have never really cared about women rights. They are a very easy target. TRAs certainly didn't start all the abusive behaviour that that has recently been made public in politics, and TRAs aren't responsible for the pay scale at the BBC or for sacking female presenters over a certain age.

Why not let somebody who appears to be vaguely progressive, in a way that is completely harmless to men, make policy on some equality nonsense?

Who? Me? Cos I'm in my 50s and I've pretty much been doing that since I was teenager. Nobody told me I had a gendered soul and must take testosterone otherwise I'd be a suicide risk. And I've led a remarkably happy life.

Good for you, but Hillary Clinton had to spend hours every day on her hair, make up and clothes, practising saying things in a voice that didn't sound too 'strident' or 'patronising', because God forbid any man should be made to feel that a woman knew more than they did.

Basically, I agree that society appears to be regressing, but I think progress was limited.

Having said all of the above, I am at a complete loss to understand why supposedly feminist politicians and journalists support trans activist ideology. Are they particularly susceptible to pressure to be 'nice'?