Talk radio Julia Hartley-Brewer & Lily Madigan

[GrimDamnFanjo]

Painful.

Bloody hell, that was brutal..

Lilly really needs to prepare for this stuff - when you've blocked everyone on twitter who disagrees with you, I guess it's hard to get your debate practise in and hone your arguments, but still, that was extremely, embarrassingly bad.

Giles, apparently race is biological and evolutionary whilst sex and gender are social.

Race is biological and evolutionary.
Whilst sex and gender are social.

Well, I'll socially change my sex and produce sperm then.

FFS.

It's rather disturbing to find I'm suddenly on the same team as people like JHB & Andrew Gilligan

Its not disturbing.

Its called THINKING rather than going along with the crowd.

I have got Sky News on ready for the programme.
I am ill currently, so have been occupying the sofa all day.
Shame the timing probably isn't very convenient for people who are at work or otherwise busy.

It is disturbing. People like JHB usually come out with hideous misogynist claptrap. It's very strange indeed to see her talking sense

You're also on the same side as Julie Bindel, lots of people from the women's sector, Brian Cox, Sarah Ditum, Robert Webb, Graham Linehan etc.
Just because you don't agree with someone like JHB on most things doesn't mean you can't agree with them on some things. I'm sure JHB wouldn't kick a puppy for example, that doesn't mean that you should kick one.

Fivepastels
I’ve had the same response - from my brother. He got furious with me and my SIL when we laid out the issues for women, then after she’d gone to bed I tried to diffuse and apologise for us “ganging up” on him, but he was so angry he got spiteful and gaslight-ey with me about unrelated, family issues. I say unrelated, those problems are rooted in family members, including my brother, refusing to accept my boundaries.
We haven’t spoken since, and I don’t suppose we will again. I’m heartbroken as I truly saw him as my best friend, but he’s shown me a side of himself that I didn’t believe existed and I can’t unsee it now.
This trans issue will show many more women what the men in their lives truly think about their rights and boundaries, I’m afraid.
Regarding JHB’s political “acceptability”, this kind of tribalism (of which I’ve been guilty of) has contributed a great deal towards getting us to a place where no platforming and no debate is considered an answer to anything, in my opinion. It’s all a bit “goodies and baddies” and I’m mortified that I ever thought that way.
Another life long Labour voter without a political home, here.

Lily is never going to be an MP. They’re unable to string a coherent sentence together much less present their side of the argument.

I'm so sorry to hear that sharik. It must be awful to have that kind of falling out with a close family member. Why are otherwise nice, kind, even tempered men getting themselves so, so worked up about this issue? I'm sure you've had other political arguments with him, as I have with my friend, but I've never seen this side to him.

My friend got gaslight-ey too. Not to the same awful extent as your brother, but he brought up the word TERF, I'm sure of it. But then suddenly he was telling me I had mentioned it. I'm sure I didn't. It's all so, so strange.

Fivepastels - this is the problem with tribal politics. Nothing is black and white and it's not my side or your side.

Some right wingers see gender as innate and believe people should change their behaviour to correlate with their birth sex.

Some left wingers see gender as innate and believe people should change their bodies to correlate with their preferred gender role.

Feminists (the real ones) do not believe gender is innate and think people should accept their bodies and express themselves however they like.

So this issue is not relevant to the usual left/right tribal politics.

Your friend thinks you should give up your rights so you can still be in his tribe. Bollocks to that. Tell him to fuck off. It doesn't take a towering intellect to see any of this so if he refuses to even consider the issue, he's not worth having as a friend.

Fivepastels, thank you, your post prompted me to post after a long time lurking. It is no wonder so many of us are afraid to speak our views openly!
We used to make daft jokes about “let’s have a heated debate,”. I’ve never seen him react like this.....but he wasn’t acting like someone who thought he was on the moral high ground, sadly. The only conclusions I can draw about the lefty men who get so angry about this aren’t nice ones. all round.

LM makes himself look such a twat I could almost feel sorry for him except I don’t.

When I apologised for him being upset

That's it in a nutshell.

Why should you take responsibility for his temper tantrum?

Because you're socialised as a woman (and you do not have testosterone flooding your body) you've been taught submission. And that being kind to people, accepting them and considering their feelings, is more important than being respectful of your own opinions, beliefs or feelings. For 'you' read 'we' and 'women' as well.

This is why the insane, illogical and unscientific trans-ideology has got so far. Because we, as women, have bent over backwards to accommodate our training to be kind to people, accept them and consider their feelings.

How keen was Corbyn on the all women shortlists anyway, weren't they, like anything blairite, hopelessly red tory or something? I really don't have time for men who are fine with women's rights being curtails because, oh yes, it's not a portion of their rights that are being curtailed.

I don't suppose men lose much sleep about being attacked by women self-ID'g as men in men only spaces.

five and sharik, the only apology needed here is the 'sorry, not sorry' one :)

Nothing is black and white

It is in this case.

XX = female human. Adult female human = woman.

XY = male human. Adult male human = man.

Lily would have to get put up in a really safe Labour seat to win. Most of those are 'seat blocked' by long term Labour MPs, and only open up very occasionally when one retires or dies.

It would also have to be a London seat, because I can not image they have lost their minds enough to risk standing Madigan in the North. But then again, I could be wrong on that...

bangkokhilton

I suggested they invite someone who gives a shit about women, I have been blocked and they are now tweeting that this reaction is 'wrong'.

That Jesus lookalike is always hassling 'terfs' on twitter. I'm half convinced he's trolling what with all the rubbish he comes out with.

That was like the proverbial lamb to the slaughter...

I wonder if JHB's researchers had found out that when LM was in early MRA mode Liam Madigan tweeted Race For Life to ask why men weren't allowed to compete, and compared the restriction to Rosa Parks on the bus?

"I'm a table" might be my next name-change though

it infuriates me when people use it to bash the Labour Party, as the other Parties are by no means deeply committed to women's rights and I think the Labour Party still stands as the most committed to achieving equality

The difference is that there has always been a part of the Conservative Party that believes that women should be in the home and that the only acceptable way to live is as part of a heterosexual married couple with 2.4 children, nominally C of E even if you don't go to church - the British version of 'Kinder, Kuche, Kirche'.

The Labour Party was supposed to be accepting of secularists and feminists.

However, now, according to LM, Owen Jones and Jeremy Corbyn, it's fine to question the existence of God, but it's beyond the pale to say that there is no such thing as innate male or female gender, and that, not having souls, it is impossible to be born into the wrong body. If you ask somebody what exactly they mean when they say they have a female gender, you aren't a feminist, you are transphobic.

While as a government they are all over the place, as a party the Conservatives sidestep a lot of trans issues because they don't really do equality policy. You might not agree with their policy on AWS but it does have the the advantage of being based on a logical argument.

The current Labour opinion that there should be AWS, but that it's not possible to objectively define the set of people who are women, is absolutely bonkers.

I laughed so hard, Lily was so awful. All CIS Women panels = terrible. All Trans women panel = amazing. "Complicated biology". Schadenfreude ist die schönste Freude.

It is in this case.

I meant, if it wasn't obvious, in this case: right wing = anti trans, left wing = pro trans.

God he is so STUPID. How did he get accepted into uni? He is hopeless. The offensiveness of this, how much better a 20 year old woman would have to be to get into his position. What 20 yr old woman, serious about a political career, would sign off her tweets with little hearts and kisses for starters?