Talk radio Julia Hartley-Brewer & Lily Madigan

[GrimDamnFanjo]

Painful.

snawdays - a poster (lottiegarbanzo) on another thread expressed that exact point very well, and clarified my own muddled thoughts.

Link is here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3186383-bloody-bbc-at-it-again?msgid=76155256#76155256

I also don't think it is Labour alone and agree about AWS.

WEP have had a good bashing, rightly. The rest of the parties are keeping quiet and some have admitted they see challenges here.

The best thing LM can do is hit the campaign trail. It'll be like The Emperor's New Clothes. A total farce. That should put paid to dumbo Corbyn and the rest of the Self ID'ing Cocks In Frocks trying a scam.

I can't imagine that Transwomen who have been living their lives for years are enamoured with this lot at all

I am not being obtuse or anything, I just dont understand why table is offensive, but the comparison to age/race/height etc... isnt?

I do get that the use of table might seem a bit reductive, but does it not prove the same point?

I don't think it's offensive, but for me it's too easy to dismiss. JHB doesn't feel like a table. She presumably doesn't want to stand while families eat off her or have varnish applied to her yearly. I think it's more useful to get to the issue of why some men feel like they are women, and generally that will be down to stereotypes that they embrace. So on that level, I can honestly say, "well, I like Werther's originals and shortbread in tartan tins and jigsaws and sitting about watching telly with a blanket over me, so why am I not a trans pensioner?" I know I'm not, but I feel like I'm coming at it from the same angle as they are when they say they're women, iyswim. I feel it's easier to expose the inconsistency that way.

five a small part of me suspects that these men never really agreed with special treatment for women in the first place, so aren't bothered about the erosion of it.

There's one aspect I do think is bad - protection of women only spaces is an OBVIOUS problem of this policy, and labour have done nothing to say how they'd mitigate problems in this area caused by self-ID.

Is this the standard of policy making on important issues we can expect from the current labour party? because it doesn't inspire confidence.

Policy changes can have many unforseen consequences - these ones are foreseeable. Howmany rapes and murders are OK before protection for female spaces is deemed worthy?

Fivepastels, I'm not surprised you're still upset. I would be fuming with him. It sounds like he needed to win the argument but couldn't because you were talking sense and he wasn't. It's really disappointing when a friend behaves like this. It's something I would struggle to put behind me entirely, given his response when you contacted him. Well done though, I think you've handled it really well

The plurality of media is a blessing. It is the core of liberal democracy. We have utterly forgotten the principle and we need to go back to that basic.

Right now, I want to smash the heads of all the political parties together whilst repeating this over and over until they beg me to stop. (The worst offenders on this score are actually not Labour or the Conservatives but the Liberal Democrats because of the party's bloody name).

Don't think you have to agree with the same people all the time. That's just about you feeling the need to have to affirm your own identity by following the views of the 'right people'. You are then trapped by the opinions of others which make you unable to freely express your own. It is the intrinsic pitfall of social media.

We are too bothered about the echo chambers we live in and approval and self worth from that echo chamber rather than 'pursuit of the truth'.

When having doubts about this refer to Jefferson!

“Our liberty depends on the freedom of the press, and that cannot be limited without being lost.”
― Thomas Jefferson

"Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."
― Thomas Jefferson

He also said:
"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers"

and

"Advertisements contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper."

The point being, the press help you question and critically think but you need a range of editorial lines and voices in order to be able to do that, as no single part of the press is ever 'right' all the time because of their bias and their propensity to spout bullshit too.

They are an aid to thinking, not a guide on how to think.

His point was that:

“Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of the body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day.”
― Thomas Jefferson

and that

"Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom.".
― Thomas Jefferson

Simple truths can not be denied if you hold them dear and keep saying them. They are what keep us free.

Keep plugging.

Ok Collaidascope thanks, that makes sense, I guess you are right, it does over simpifly the issue from that perspective doesnt it?

I suppose as we are discussing the idea of a supposedly “innate” set of feelings as described by TIM’s etc..., then yes, table doesnt get to the crux of the matter suitably.

Five pastels you do know it was your friend who should have apologised ? Ask him if transwomen are women would he sleep with one ?

Kay Burley is doing a programme at 4pm. Its called 100 women, with a live studio audience of 100 women, a debate to mark International Womens Day.
Kay is most certainly another no nonsense woman.

*I also find LM's breathy little-girl-lost impersonation of a female voice quite insulting.

It's such a toe-curling weak little woman impression and nothing at all like the clear-voiced and articulate females I know.

If LM wants to be seen as a woman she'd do a lot worse than to drop her Bo Peep act for one.*

He reminded me of a breathy, creepy man who used to phone me asking, for a survey you understand, what colour my underwear was. He had the the quivering voice to a T!

The former philosophy student inns would argue Plato's theory of forms as proof that the idea of a table and the idea of a woman are perfectly comparable.

I also find LM's breathy little-girl-lost impersonation of a female voice quite insulting.

It's such a toe-curling weak little woman impression and nothing at all like the clear-voiced and articulate females I know.

Yes, again, it's the misogynistic idea that 'real' women are vulnerable and victims. It links to why university-educated is becoming an insult. A lot of lefty men only like women when they're disenfranchised and subjugated. Then they can talk about how we deserve equality. But once we get a modicum of that, we're hated again.

It just kills me when Lilly constantly says "Duh" instead of "The". Acts like a child, thinks like a child, speaks like a child.

My first reaction was to cheer - but I can't deny the fact that I think JHB is just a polished Katie Hopkins. And I fail to understand how the trans activists think they can release a muppet like LM out into the world to debate their corner in a positive way.
It's like the MorrisZap post on the Rage thread - I used to actively promote the trans cause a couple of years ago and now the world seems to be upside down and I'm suddenly tempted to cheer on someone whose views I generally despise?!

I say people, the men I've discussed it with are the ones disagreeing and throwing temper fits, whereas just thinking about it now not one single woman has disagreed with me. Albeit there's only been about 8 people I've actually discussed it with.

None of the men I've discussed this matter with have responded other than with understanding my points and being interested in learning more. Only one lefty man though and he's not one of the dogmatic sort.

I'd love to see LM interviewed by Jeremy Paxman...

Not sure I would. I've never been a fan of blood sports!!

Can I just say that I wasn't expecting the level of kindness that I've been shown by posters on the thread. I've been really upset about the falling out with my friend, and this has made me feel a bit better

But fivepastels doesn't it worry you that this group of people won't even listen to your concerns? Yes, it does. I work in politics though, and so men not listening to women isn't something that's taken me by surprise, although I must say the depth of feeling about telling me I'm wrong on this one is something I've been taken aback by.

Five pastels you do know it was your friend who should have apologised ? Ask him if transwomen are women would he sleep with one? I cannot imagine the anger he would've had if I'd asked him that. He'd have had no answer, of course. He'd just laugh incredulously and angrily and shake his head.

None of the men I've discussed this matter with have responded other than with understanding my points and being interested in learning more. Only one lefty man though and he's not one of the dogmatic sort. It's heartening that it's not all men disagreeing!

In fairness there is a couple of men I've discussed it with who do understand or just don't care. There's one who did totally agree with me, despite his teenage daughter telling him how offensive etc. his attitude was. He seems to be wavering now though and has decided it's a lot of fuss over having to share unisex toilets.

Giles, apparently race is biological and evolutionary whilst sex and gender are social.

This is according to a link I found on LM's twitter feed. The link takes you to a YouTube video by someone called Kat Blaque (or something similar).

They are themselves a black transwoman (ie, a black man that feels like a woman).

Apparently, it's ridiculous to know how a black person feels as a black person, yet this person claims to have always felt like a woman, despite being a man.

That's completely different though!!

I don't get how they separate the two in their heads.
Sex IS biological, so surely if you can 'change' sex then you have to allow people to 'change' race (If their reason for not being able to change race is that it's biological).

I'm fed up with idiots like Paris Lees and her ilk comparing Trans issues to racism..black people this black people that comparisons constantly

Yet you can't identify as being black according to Lily.

I think the logic, Science, is that gender is a real thing, so it's possible for a man to believe he's a woman because women are real and men are real. (I was going to write "sex is a real thing", but I'm not sure they do believe that, confusingly.)

But race isn't a real thing, it's just a social construction, so you can't have a strong belief that you're really black, because terms like black, white etc are just conventions imposed by society.

I'm just guessing, though. Obviously the whole thing falls apart if you try to approach it logically.

Science I've just read your post again properly and hilariously, the answer seems to be the opposite of what I've written. Well, there you go, none of it makes any sense at all.

The post up thread made me think though, going back to the over simplification of the ‘table’ argument. Fab, you believe you’re a table, makes no odds to me, I’ll call you mahogany, but don’t expect to be treated as a table. That to me gives a simple argument more weight, and really adds to my own view. It doesn’t worry me either way if a man fancies being a woman, but when it comes to the impact it could have on others (ie safe spaces), that’s a no go. Feel like whatever, believe you’re whatever, but if it impacts me and my daughters, it’s not happening.

So, just to make sure I've understood this properly: race is rooted in biology but sex isn't?

Bloody hell.

We’re thrilled to have @madigan_lily come and speak to us tomorrow for International Women’s Day

Is lily going to cross a picket line then? Tomorrow is a strike day at RHUL.