Talk radio Julia Hartley-Brewer & Lily Madigan

[GrimDamnFanjo]

Painful.

Hi Speedy

I guessed that’s what they meant. Lily says they don’t have a passport in their new name/gender rather than not having one at all. As I understand it if you have a passport that should be in your new name for a GRC as it forms part of the evidence that you’ve been living in your acquired gender for at least 2 years. The amount of proof you need is one of the things that has led to the call for the process to be simplified.

If Lily has a GRC I’d expect Lily to have several pieces of ID in the name ‘Lily’ with the ‘gender’ shown as female. The claims to both have a GRC but not have enough ID for benefits or to get a job doesn’t add up.

I guessed that’s what they meant. Lily says they don’t have a passport in their new name/gender rather than not having one at all. As I understand it if you have a passport that should be in your new name for a GRC as it forms part of the evidence that you’ve been living in your acquired gender for at least 2 years. The amount of proof you need is one of the things that has led to the call for the process to be simplified.

If Lily has a GRC I’d expect Lily to have several pieces of ID in the name ‘Lily’ with the ‘gender’ shown as female. The claims to both have a GRC but not have enough ID for benefits or to get a job doesn’t add up.

Agreed on both points.

Yes to things not adding up. An acquaintance of mine has recently changed all their IDs and bank account sex details on the strength of a doctor's letter...

Just leaving this here re: Lily's passport. This statement and the one made today can't both be true. More lies from Lily.

Can I just say what I think about the 'I am a table' example?

mummybear701: 'she is comparing an inanimate object with a human'.
No, I don't think that's what's going on with the example. There is no comparison like that there at all (perhaps contrary to appearances).

LM (and TRAs) claim that saying 'I am a woman' makes me a woman. That's self-ID, just in a nutshell. Why is it nonsense? Because any claim that 'I am an X' makes me an X is silly, no matter what X is.

This latter assertion, now, 'any claim that 'I am an X' makes me an X is silly, no matter what X is' is forcibly driven home by taking a particular example for X: take X to be a table.

It's a logical point being argued, and not at all by analogy or comparison of tables and humans. The logical point is that identifying as something cannot constitute what it is to be that something. That's true because of the logic of identifying and what it is to be something.

'I'm a whiffledorf.'

• Oh, are you really? What's a whiffledorf?

'Anyone who says they're a whiffledorf is a whiffledorf.' (It's a self-ID concept!) 'So yes, I am really a whiffledorf.'

That's nonsense, not because 'whiffledorf' is a nonsense word, but because it doesn't make sense to define or explain the meaning of something (whiffledorf, table, woman, anything!) as 'what anyone who says they're one of those is'. And it shows the LM (and TRA) claim, 'Anyone who says they're a woman is a woman' to be equally nonsensical. No comparison of humans with whiffledorfs or inanimate objects or anything else.

That's a bit long. Worth getting clear though. I hope it makes sense.

So Lily has an F on her passport, to declare she is female

But Lily needs money for a passport, so she can get a job

And she needs money for a passport that she's already got

And she needs a passport to claim benefits

Can students claim benefits ?

I'm totally fucking confused

What pronouns does the table prefer to use? I don't wish to misgender the table. And how does that work in other languages?

You mean this one from today?

Lily, I know you lurk on here - how do you like my work around for your blocking?

I'm sure in French a table is female but I left school a very long time ago, but I did pass O level French

sharik, how long has it been since you had the argument with your brother?

I know your he’s been awful and I know it’s a shock to find out he’s not who you thought he was, but if it’s causing you pain then is it worth it to be without him in your life? Not excusing how he behaved, but I feel gutted at the thought of no longer being close to my friend and I hope we are again. I cannot begin to imagine losing a sibling over this. I hope you don’t feel bad about it if you decide you want to get in touch with him. It is bewildering he hasn’t with you.

Astraia - I was just about to say that i was pretty certain that LM had previously claimed to have a passport saying "F" on it....

So Dec 2017 LM has a passport with F on it (and presumably in the name of "Lily") but is unable to get the PayPal account changed because of a lack of documentation

March 2018 LM does not have a passport in the name of "Lily" and thus is unable to take up a job offer (which, incidentally, is bollocks from either LM or the potential employer as a passport is not a mandatory ID for pre-work checks. And hey, guess what, the "cis-tem" is really good about understanding when women change their name, as most of them change their name on marriage.... We have to provide our marriage certificates to show that we have gone from Miss X to Mrs Y because, y'know, patriarchy.... How about providing that GRC instead, to demonstrate why documents are in different names......?)

Oh what a tangled web...

This interview has made me laugh all evening.

I think the answer is that LM identifies as having a passport with ‘F’ on it.

Despite not actually having a passport obvs.

I argued against the table analogy on the grounds that Julia presumably isn't going to attempt to look or behave as a table, but, on reflection, perhaps Julia, like Danielle Muscato and that Alex bloke, is simply "widening the bandwidth of what it is to be a table." I mean why should tables be reduced to their load-bearing skills and the possession of legs? How misotableist! Tables should be able to work on radio talk shows and earn a salary, and some tables wobble or lose a leg and that doesn't mean they're tables anymore, so anything can be a table yada yada yada.

Doesn't meant they're not* tables anymore

humpty.jpg

Male dominance is entirely a question of how much obedience you can extract from others.

Oh dear Lily seems to have difficulty telling reality from fantasy 🤔

The more I read and the more I listen the more apparent it becomes to me just how terribly fucked up Lily is.

Lily is a lost soul. When all of this has died down and Lily is no longer of any use to the Labour parties agenda he will be thrown in the scrap heap.

Shame on you..Labour party , for exploiting an obviously intellectually challenged teenager with a litenay of mental health problems to score votes.

I don't think the table analogy is very strong either.

While there is scant research to prove anything, it is certainly within the realm of possibility that something biological could happen that, for whatever reason, gives someone an uncontrollable desire to identify as the opposite sex.

Many might find it easier to believe that an accident in-útero could lead to a female "soul" being born into a male body. It's preposterous to believe this could lead to a table "soul" being born into a female body.

I think this is also where the race comparison also falls down. How believable is it that a black "soul" could be born with a white body?

I'm not saying I believe this. Im just trying to work out why I don't think the table analogy will convince anybody who already believes transwomen are women.

I think JHB will have made listeners think far more with her simply stating that if she self declared as a man, then she would be a man. This might help people realise that all checks are being taken away and the impact this will have.

As Rebecca Root demonstrated, very few people including some TRA's don't even know what this legislation consists of!

@chambeni Exactly. TRAs believe in some kind of 'gender switch' in the brain which is set to male or female. Superficially it makes more sense than a race switch or a table switch. But some TRAs seem to believe that gender is a feeling disconnected from the body, meaning that a man could have a sense of being female without wanting to change his anatomy (and anyone who says otherwise is truscum). That doesn't add up so much. If the body is irrelevant then what is really happening is that the person is strongly attracted, for whatever reason, to gender stereotypes.

I doubt anyone has been able to call LM out as they seem to have blocked everyone apart from their fan base.

Exactly Mrs. Anyone is instantly blocked if they question LM. Which is very convenient when you tell porkies.

I think this is also where the race comparison also falls down. How believable is it that a black "soul" could be born with a white body?

chambeni why do you find a "black" soul as a concept less believable than a "female" soul?

I think they are equally unbelievable.