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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you think mn is strongly transphobic....

405 replies

midgebabe · 05/03/2018 17:22

I find it very unfair to be accused of transphobia when I am not actually worried about trans people as such. I am worried about how bad men might abuse legislative changes . I am worried about giving bad men more opportunities . About how people might be able to pretend to be trans. I suspect this is a threat to both biological women and trans women.

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treaclesoda · 06/03/2018 06:22

One of the most outrageous things about this effort to strip women of their rights is that so few women have heard about it.

So true. But what also truly astounds me is that even on being made aware of it, so many women are so convinced that it won't affect them.

SophoclesTheFox · 06/03/2018 06:56

It's so frightening when you gather it together like that, annie Sad

I've read about all of these individually before, but something about them being gathered in one place...and you're right, you could have gone on for quite a while before you ran short of material.

Rumpledfaceskin · 06/03/2018 07:08

This thread has answered all my queries about transphobia on MN and now I realise I was 100% correct before not to post in trans threads.

No one has actually READ most of my posts properly, don’t worry I’ve read all yours, and because I don’t agree with the that ‘fake’ trans people are a hugely credible threat I’ve been personally attacked, told I don’t care about women, told I don’t care about the rights of prisoners, (totally laughable when I’ve never noticed anyone MN gives two shits about them before you mention trans and seem to be campainging against the only polictal party that could improve the safety and conditions for the prison population, which are greatly at risk as we speak from hundreds of issues before fake trans people, due to the complete abject failure of the current government to keep them safe and run prisons properly. And why? Because the let a trans person be a women’s officer).

I have said repeatedly that I’m against self ID, and I’m for most women’s only spaces but I can’t help thinking MN borders on obsessional when it comes to toilets and changing rooms. The other area that is often cited where fake trans people might be a risk. IRL I’ve know a queue of women happily start using the men’s loo when no one else was waiting (myself included), women are happy to let their 10 yo boys roam round changing rooms when it suits them. Are we truly that bothered by having to piss in a cubicle next to man? One of our local pools has always had communal changing/shower area (better for families) and perving has never been a problem. I’m sure if people want to perve they can do it in the pool anyway. The safety of public toilets has a lot more to do with building design than it does categorising them into sex. There’s a town I visit where I’d never use the public loos because they are in a nasty quiet underpass, they are hardly used apart from to take drugs and I once saw someone who I would describe as creepy hanging around them. Do I think a lady sign would stop that person if they wanted to attack someone? No. Would I feel worried in a busy area or a busy shop changing next to a man or being in a cubicle next to a man? No, and again I don’t kniw anyone IRL who would either. Lots of shops I go to already have mixed changing areas and loos for either sex, because they are in closed lockable cubicles. Surely the busier a loo is the safer they become?

LifelongVaginaOwner · 06/03/2018 07:21

Rumpled

You said As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison. This is demonstrably wrong.

Maybe if you read the threads you would have know that.

Rumpledfaceskin · 06/03/2018 07:37

Yes clearly. But most of the people mentioned are undergoing a physical transition or have been kept in segregation. I still don’t agree with it, and think it’s ridiculous and have said many times that anyone with a penis still intact shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a women’s prison. But they will have been through masses of observation and assessment to deem whether they are ‘genuine’ trans. So what should be done with them in prison is a complex dilemma. There are also more cases than people realise (they’re not publicised) of female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women, should we move them to men’s prison? I don’t know the answer, but the only way forward I can see is to keep them segregated completely. Social workers currently don’t let any bloke who says he identifies as female (and lots do try it on) move prisons without months and months of assessment. Surgery to transition is exceptionally brutal and unpleasant so if someone in custody has been allowed to get that far they will have been catergorised as ‘genuine’ trans. I have known of one person who had the full surgery, then wanted to change back. So occasionally they do slip through the net, but that is probably down to their naivety rather than a failing of health professionals.

Iminthecclubnow · 06/03/2018 07:49

Rumpled

Sorry, you may have answered this further up the thread but I didn't see:

If you don't believe that 'trans women are women', is that transphobic?

LifelongVaginaOwner · 06/03/2018 07:52

The problem is that this is the case now prior to any change in the law. Men with their penis 'intact' are in women's prisons. You think that is ridiculous. I think that is ridiculous. (As an aside I think it's ridiculous that some organisations say "but men's prisons are so violent they have to be moved ". Maybe solve that hey. Or don't the other male prisoners matter). The difference is that I think that while we are unable to come up with a solution under current legislation that is not 'ridiculous' then the answer is to pause and fix that rather than to keep moving relentlessly down the road of stripping the protected characteristic of 'sex' of any meaning.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2018 07:56

totally laughable when I’ve never noticed anyone MN gives two shits about them before you mention trans and seem to be campainging against the only polictal party that could improve the safety and conditions for the prison population, which are greatly at risk as we speak from hundreds of issues before fake trans people, due to the complete abject failure of the current government to keep them safe and run prisons properly.

Rumpledfaceskin I've been campaigning about conditions for women in prison since the mid-1980s. Hope that helps.

And why? Because the let a trans person be a women’s officer

I'm sure that "Saville's apprentice", as someone in a position of influence within the Labour Party, will do all they can to ensure the safety of vulnerable women in prison. I'm totally convinced...

LifelongVaginaOwner · 06/03/2018 08:13

One of my concerns @Rumpledfaceskin is at precisely at the time of Me Too and Times Up we are removing from women the right to set their own boundaries. Women who speak up are being called bigots by default. They are silenced - except for here which may explain the focus.

I'd also like to pick up on women are happy to let their 10 yo boys roam round changing rooms when it suits them. That's an interesting case. When my son was 11 he had to use the men's changing room at the gym I went to because boys over 10 weren't allowed in the women's changing rooms. Ironically if he now - at the age of 25 - were to identify as female many 'ladies' changing rooms would allow him access.

I note you say you are against self-id so I'm unclear on why you are so dismissive of other women who want to fight strongly against it.

ArcheryAnnie · 06/03/2018 08:15

Lots of shops I go to already have mixed changing areas and loos for either sex, because they are in closed lockable cubicles. Surely the busier a loo is the safer they become?

I've said from the beginning that I am mostly OK with the kind of unisex loo that is a series of lockable cubicles with floor-to-ceiling doors, off a short, open corridor. My DS's secondary school, a new build, has these - though I note also that some of the girls (and some of the parents of the girls, too) don't like them, and I am unhappy that they are forced to use facilities they don't feel comfortable in, even if I'm ok with those facilities. However, these are monitored, frequently checked, and in a high-traffic, highly-supervised building, where there are huge penalties for any teenager behaving improperly, anywhere.

If you look at unisex loos in public spaces, they are often not this type of construction, so impossible for any woman to use if they want to avoid getting trapped in a dead-end room, separated from public space by two doors, with a strange man. Even the ones that are of the cubicles-off-an-open-corridor type are no good when they are not supervised. I've written on mumsnet before about the public loos at Camden Market, which are of this model, and where women and girls using the loos are treated to the sight of the men who leave their cubicle doors open.

hackmum · 06/03/2018 08:16

When I hear people say that they don't know of any instances of men exploiting the self-ID rules so they can abuse women and girls, I marvel at how it's possible to be so naive about what abusers are and aren't prepared to do. A while back on a thread about expressing a preference for a female gynaecologist, someone said that they couldn't imagine a man spending years in medical school training to be a doctor, simply because he wanted the opportunity to abuse women. Touching, no?

The truth - as we all surely ought to know by now - is that abusers will take every opportunity they have to reach their victims. Yes, they will train for jobs as teachers, priests, doctors, nurses, care home workers, vicars, if it gives them access to potential victims. Yes, they will become scout leaders and choir masters and volunteer with the boys' brigade. That is what they do. That is how abusers work.

Surely people can see that self-ID - the ability to declare yourself a woman, and thus gain access to women's spaces - is a big, fat open invitation to abusers? You might as well hang a sign on a changing room door saying "Rapists welcome".

Wobbleslikeaweeble · 06/03/2018 08:19

Rumpled

You’re as transphobic as anyone here. Transactivists would consider you their enemy. You ARE what they mean by transphobic mumsnet.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/03/2018 08:22

There are also more cases than people realise (they’re not publicised) of female prisoners transitioning to male and then trying to abuse women

Can you provide your source for this information?

HairyBallTheorem · 06/03/2018 08:25

Rumpled I have a little experiment for you to try out.

Go onto twitter and post your comment "As far as I’m aware, social workers and psychologists are wise enough not to let a violent criminal with a penis into a women’s prison," plus a reference to the fact that you oppose self ID, on the twitter thread of someone like Lily Madigan, and see what happens to you.

Or try to post it under a trans article on the Guardian and see whether it makes it through their moderation policy.

Your view are transphobic, according to current definitions of transphobia.

TERFragetteCity · 06/03/2018 08:26

I still don’t agree with it, and think it’s ridiculous and have said many times that anyone with a penis still intact shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a women’s prison. But they will have been through masses of observation and assessment to deem whether they are ‘genuine’ trans.

That is the very point - no they do not!

TruScum · 06/03/2018 08:28

I’m as bad as a nazi and 100% transphobic according to the current definition.

So are you Rumpled.

I’ve seen women threatened with rape and worse for saying that. Even political and public figures will block you and call you a bigot for your current beliefs.

Does knowing that make you a bit uncomfortable?

velourvoyageur · 06/03/2018 08:32

What I think is really fucking phobic is feeling so nonplussed by your gender non-conforming child that you’re happy to help them match themselves - first with ‘gentle’ nudging (let’s face it, when a child acquires language in a house where things are talked about in terms of ‘girl’s clothes’ or ‘girl’s makeup’, the game’s up) and then with full-on reinforcement in the form of not ‘misgendering’ and so on once the male child assumes he is a girl after having absorbed the logical conclusion of these received ideas - to the opposite sex and go down the blockers, hormones, surgery route. That you’re happy to turn a blind eye and pretend that children do know, on the same level as you do, what girl, boy, woman, man, gender and sex mean. Putting the burden on your entirely unequipped child’s shoulders to be a critical thinker and not to faithfully latch on to stereotypes dispatched as fact is a parental choice and failure.
→Why is this choice being made?

Even female children, when they say they want to be a mum, have no idea what that actually means. Why do we not see it as unusual? Why isn’t it unusual for a child who’s never even had sex to say that she wants to push another human child through an opening in her body she may literally not even be aware of yet? Because female children are treated as mums-in-training. At 7 I didn't know where my vaginal opening was and yet I was being described as a ‘born mum’, this in the C21st. If a boy expresses a wish to bear a child it is (naturally more understandably) uncommon and seen therefore something as he must have really thought through, a concept with which he must be intimately familiar. Except no child has any clue what pregnancy is. I’m an adult who’s not thinking about having kids for a good many years yet and I don’t have much more of a clue (MN threads about birth were a bloody revelation I can tell you). It’s a special kind of arrogance to assume that the image of pregnancy we have in our heads is the same as knowing the reality of it, and we transmit this arrogance to children. So insisting it’s transphobic not to take your lead from children who don’t know the meanings of the words they’re using to OK irreversible medical intervention is at best incredibly shortsighted, and at worst willfully misguided. And if it’s the latter, what’s the agenda?

Many parents are embarrassed by a son in a dress and, to whatever degree of transparency, communicate this to their child, which they see as an extension of themselves, an annexe. And, more simply, we are uncomfortable at the notion that there could one day be a generation which, as pre-pubertal children, can’t be easily separated into ‘girls’ and ‘boys’ on sight. You can unambiguously identify as a 'boy' or 'girl' very few children by looking at their face – pop a long-haired boy in a dress, cut a girl’s hair & you can’t guess via dependence on the usual visual cues, and I think this is deeply unnerving for many. It is our separation as children which facilitates the gendering and exaggeration of sexual difference between the sexes to adulthood. As a society with an interest in maintaining and generating gendered division of the sexes (inc. AGP), we can't afford to miss the boat in childhood. I think we do have homophobia at play here, but also deep attachment to preserving the current significance of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ categories, which the gender matrix does beautifully. Of course radfems also promote the recognition of sexual difference – it's medically relevant, and because one sex has a rather spectacular track record of trampling on the other – but we are not repulsed by the absence of gender.
→ Fear of GNC, that’s the phobia I'm seeing.

I do see a little unnecessary mudslinging on Twitter, and there have been some very rare comments on TIMs’ personal appearance (which are immediately called out) on MN, but on the whole, I don’t see hatred or disgust. Political goals are identified and worked towards here - the vast majority of posters on this board recognise that what is noted as transphobia will impede this, so you can understand that being bigoted isn't in our self-interest (if nothing else will persuade you). I do see exasperation and indignance, but when you’re being force fed a more extreme incarnation of the essentialism women have spent centuries tackling, I’m not sure why we’re being asked to sit nicely and settle, you gonna ask us to sort the coffee, poppet, as well?

Rumpledfaceskin · 06/03/2018 08:38

Tallulah someone close to me who is a highly trained professional and has worked with criminals who are mentally ill for 30 years. In terms of other prisoners welfare, some of their biggest concerns right now are actually women who like to abuse other women transitioning to men and what to ‘do’ with them.

Terfragtte they do.

I’m sure I’m considered transphobic by some militant people who post things online because Im against self ID. But the truth is I’ve never heard of any of them outside of the internet. I would never bother engaging in a war over Twitter with people who are quite possibly just trolls anyway. It’s seems less about a discussion and finding some sort of middle ground (for instance trans people should have a right to feel safe and un scrutinised using a public loo and changing room as much as anyone) and more about hurling insults is a childish way. And I still think the internet is in mass hysteria about some aspects of the debate when the RL risks thrown around like it’s happening everyday are actually minimal.

Wobbleslikeaweeble · 06/03/2018 08:44

What I think is really fucking phobic is feeling so nonplussed by your gender non-conforming child that you’re happy to help them match themselves - first with ‘gentle’ nudging (let’s face it, when a child acquires language in a house where things are talked about in terms of ‘girl’s clothes’ or ‘girl’s makeup’, the game’s up) and then with full-on reinforcement in the form of not ‘misgendering’ and so on once the male child assumes he is a girl

I doubt this is fair to the majority of parents who find themselves in this position. I imagine many have cried, had many sleepless nights, have been terrified and desperate and are only trying to i help their child going by the help and advice currently out there.

TERFragetteCity · 06/03/2018 08:48

for instance trans people should have a right to feel safe and un scrutinised using a public loo and changing room as much as anyone

If they feel unsafe in the men's loos, how do they think women feel when men are in their loos? Seriously?

And I still think the internet is in mass hysteria about some aspects of the debate when the RL risks thrown around like it’s happening everyday are actually minimal.

how many women or girls will it take being attacked or raped for you to think it isn't minimal? I mean, there are only 2 women a week killed by men - that is tiny compared to the number of women in the country so minimal issue? There are more trans people in prison that have murdered other people, than there are trans people that have been murdered. Minimal issue?

When males transition, as a 'group' they keep the same level of violent behaviour as non transitioned men. So they are not transitioning to behave like women are they?

If people don't stand up when issues are minimal, they become normalised.

BronwenFrideswide · 06/03/2018 08:51

Rumpled you say obsession about changing rooms and toilets, I think the issue is that it sets a precedent and then the inevitable drip, drip happens and is in fact already happening even though self-id hasn't been brought in.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/03/2018 08:54

some of their biggest concerns right now are actually women who like to abuse other women transitioning to men and what to ‘do’ with them

That sounds like another very strong argument for a third space.

LangCleg · 06/03/2018 09:03

But the truth is I’ve never heard of any of them outside of the internet.

How come their extreme agenda has taken control of all our institutions and legislators, then? We are at the point where the Girl Guides think it's perfectly fine to risk teen pregnancy on camping trips.

You are impossibly naive, my friend.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 06/03/2018 09:06

That sounds like another very strong argument for a third space.

Absolutely

If men are abusing transitioning men and women are abusing transitioning women then there should be a third space

BronwenFrideswide · 06/03/2018 09:07

for instance trans people should have a right to feel safe and un scrutinised using a public loo and changing room as much as anyone

Have a third space.

Or if the issue with lack of safety and excessive scrutiny is a problem within the male toilets and changing rooms address that issue with the males who are causing it.

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