Biological SEX MATTERS. How many mumsnetters say "aye" to this campaign?

[SexMatters]

This document and campaign called 'Sex Matters' is a collaborative effort by amazing and knowledgeable mumsnetters on a couple of threads in FWR.

To move forward with the campaign, the organisations and individuals approached will need to know who is behind it, and the honest truth, is that mumsnetters have spearheaded it.

That does not mean that other campaigners can't get involved or even take greater ownership of it. But it needs a bio in order to introduce it to people and organisations to get started and I need your consent to describe the campaign this way: 'mumsnetter led' (and maybe even some suggestions for writing a bio on this thread).

So, you amazing gender-critical mumsnetters, do you say 'aye'?

Agree with Jane re:
"trans woman’s motivation re toilets may be innocent and wholly positive for her whilst still being negative and threatening for others."

crux of it right there.

Aye

It’s an aye-ish from me.

I read this thinking that I was going to agree completely, yet the way some sections are written made me feel a little uncomfortable. JoyTheUnicorn was right a few pages back about how some parts of this might come across as transphobic. The recent comments about the reasons people might want to access facilities etc make sense and I think edits should be made to this effect.

I couldn’t access the revised version for some reason, but I’d like to. I think that actually referencing the content will definitely help it to come across as less scaremongery.

I do wholeheartedly support this campaign, though and thank you for your hard work. I just wish there was time to make the document perfect as I’m slightly concerned that it could do more harm than good

Aye! I'm in with bells on.

For reference:

Feminist Roar @ feministroar
Here's the @nus_uk motion on the Gender Recognition Act from their LGBT conference today. "A sex-at-birth restriction on women’s services will harm trans and cis women alike."
You could not make this shit up.

Worth reflecting on in order to be able to counter.

Late to the party - but I say “Aye”. I agree that a few tweaks are necessary (all raised by others so won’t specify again).

Thanks everyone for your help and perspectives.

People who are worried about TIMs - are you aware it doesn't mention 'trans' anywhere in the document?

I ask this because the original concept was to make it appeal broadly to people who don't know anything about the issues and 'transgender' will be something vague and off their radar - maybe something they are even a bit sick of having 'shoved down their throats' so they switch off.

It does mentions dysphoria, feeling very wrong as their sex and that some sufferers seek to use the facilities of the opposite sex, but this is not really centred in proportion to their very small impact on women and the tiny minority of the population they represent.

The tone is really an attempt to take control of the language of the debate, rather than being on the constant defensive whilst playing ping-pong with the tiny minority of old-skool transsexuals who don't universally want to use women's facilities anyway.

This is a document about women's right to be a distinct biological category and have appropriate provision.

Aye

So to verify.

This document will not mention 'transgender', 'transwomen' or anything 'trans'.. those kind of tweaks won't happen.

Aye

aye

In that case, stop saying what transgender people’s reasons are.
Because your point is surely that it’s not our job to guess their reasons.
Rather that their perceived good cannot be used as justification for taking away our good.

This mumsnetter doesn't want to read any more trans hate on a site she previously felt at home.

Same here, all trans people I know are lovely so no, I am not saying aye to anything who can make them feel even more rejected, they face already more than enough hate.

If you want a document that is about us you can’t have a section headed “why do people want to access....” etc.

Aye

It doesn't mention transgender people.

Reasons are:

1. people with fetishes ie - cross-dresser, rubber dolls, etc
2. sex criminals
3. people with dysphoria ie-old skool transsexuals
4. people who believe that biological sex doesn't matter and perform stunts and actions to bring attention to it- ie attention-seeking social media youth
5. People doing it for gain - ie prisoners and athletes wanting an easier ride.

I think I said this on the original thread, but I don’t think it needs that section either. It stands fine without it. The reasons are speculative and really don’t matter.

The best of intentions or the worst of intentions are one and the same to me.

But it is totally your call sexmatters and I will support either way.

I agree with Limon on all counts there- your call and thank you.

The problem is that a lot of people don't really put 2 +2 together.

Saying things like "no one wants to go into the other sexes toilets - its only to shit and piss urgh" or "transsexuals all need to cross to the other sexes toilets for their safety".. etc.

So that motion wants to get rid of 'sex altogether and be solely self id for everyone. Would this mean we would have no protected 'sex' catergory anymore?

I like the way they say us women can no longer have their own spaces/facilities coz they are women too and if we let trans men in (who are still women biologically so may need the specific women only medical care etc) then they are no longer women only spaces.

Such twisted logic.

I just don't understand how in this bloody century and in this country we are at a point where we will legally be forced to tell lies and go along with a belief system we don't agree with and have to walk on eggshells due to those who will claim transphobia at every opportunity as they are so fucking oppressed and mortally offended by anything associated with women and our exclusionary bodily functions.

It would be like forcing atheists to believe in god.

Aye

Aye

Haven’t RTFT but have read the document linked to and think it is much better than some of the anti-trans ones I’ve seen lately. The points raised are well written, valid in a variety of settings and don’t rely on scaremongering or feelings. It would be quite a leap to decipher hate from this document.

While I reached peak trans a while ago I’m often at the point of peak terf too when I read some of the stuff being said... We need no nonsense factual data to present people not as invested or well read on the issues and I think this document goes a long way to getting that.

Aye.

I just don't understand how in this bloody century and in this country we are at a point where we will legally be forced to tell lies and go along with a belief system we don't agree with

This is why the movement is completely unsustainable and will collapse. No society can uphold a total lie for ever.

Aye