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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

What on earth is going to happen to women?

330 replies

Tinseltower · 04/03/2018 17:06

I’m actually really worried. In the past couple of weeks I’ve seen Theresa May’s speech on how being transgender is not an illness, on how they will be given equal rights including access to vinerable women’s spaces. I’ve seen labour following suit, criticising Margaret Thatchers speech about homosexuality and likening it to the transgender movement, saying they won’t get it wrong. It’s not the same at all! What is going to happen to women in all this? It seems their rights will be pushed to one side and I’m actually rather worried. Can enough of us stand up to be heard?

OP posts:
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MontyMight · 04/03/2018 20:08

What is chilling is the number of men who think this is absolutely hilarious.

They love that Women's lists are being invaded by men. Apparently we 'asked for it', because we asked for the women's lists and not 'meritocracy'.

They don't care that women's areas are being invaded by men.

If I didn't know a few decent men, I would be really seriously alarmed.

As it is, I'm just seriously fucking cautious. And horrified , tbh

2rebecca · 04/03/2018 20:15

Many leftish liberal men are wimps re confrontation and do the "I'm a white privileged mc male I shouldn't have an opinion" thing. I saw this a lot in the SGP. Women were too polite to tell the m to f trans folk they weren't really women and didn't spot the threat.

thebewilderness · 04/03/2018 20:15

I don't think women in general will stop going out. Men have always been iffy towards us and we still go out. Younger women and older girls in particular want to get out into the world and experience it and doing this exposes them to risks already, I think it's wrong to underestimate the drive that you have when you're young to "do stuff".
The change will begin when the creepy d00d at the bar follows them into the rest room and young women begin to realize they have to go back to doing everything in packs to be safe.
Just as being poor means house parties instead of going out clubbing on ladies night so will Self ID change the social patterns.

grasspigeons · 04/03/2018 20:16

Truscum - i'm with you 100%

I don't want the protections removed and think they are necessary - for the most vulnerable.

I just think ultimately women are not going to stop shopping on a large scale or joining gyms and economics wont speak.

I've been sexually assaulted on public transport on several occasions. I still use public transport.

Riverside2 · 04/03/2018 20:17

Truscum "There were good reasons women got spaces of their own after fighting for it"

we had a teen poster on here who said she hadn't known that single sex toilets and hospital wards had developed for reasons of safety - before her post, it hadn't struck me that there's a whole generation of girls that don't know that and just link it to hangovers of Victorian prudishness.

SnibbleAgain · 04/03/2018 20:18

Yes I think women will change our behaviour in reaction, same as always.

Fucks me off.

The list of things not to do "by yourself" will simply increase. And women who do it anyway will be blamed if something happens.

NameChanger22 · 04/03/2018 20:19

But the perverted and abusive men out there don't need to go to such lengths as pretending to be a woman if they want to be perverted or abusive. They just do what they've always done - date or marry a woman.

I'm the first person to be down on men, a high proportion are a total nightmare. But I'm not going worry about a tiny percentage of men that want to dress up as a woman. They don't need to do this.

If you need the toilet when out, find one with a door that shuts. It's never been a problem in my life.

Truscum · 04/03/2018 20:21

I think that would be true in the short term grasspigeons though personally I do think it could happen eventually (depending on how long this whole thing drags on for)

I definitely agree that the very first sacrificial victims will be certain individuals and vulnerable groups so won’t ripple the water much sadly.

SnibbleAgain · 04/03/2018 20:22

?

"But the perverted and abusive men out there don't need to go to such lengths as pretending to be a woman if they want to be perverted or abusive. They just do what they've always done - date or marry a woman. "

Uh, I wasn't married to or dating the men who have harassed me / acted illegally towards me in public Confused

I think to pretend that allowing men into the ladies won't result in an influx of perves into the ladies is extremely naive.

UpstartCrow · 04/03/2018 20:22

Riverside2 April last year, a lot of men ignored the toilet with the urinals and took the opportunity to use what had previously been the womens toilet.

www.standard.co.uk/news/london/barbican-to-review-genderneutral-toilets-after-furious-row-over-long-queues-for-women-a3509136.html

PositivelyPERF · 04/03/2018 20:23

NameChanger22

What about the fact that women don’t want to share spaces with TIMs? Do their feelings count for nothing? Are the TIMs feelings more important?

UpstartCrow · 04/03/2018 20:27

Its not just abusive men that are the problem. Its also tourists who just want to try it to see how it feels, and virtual signalling men.

Truscum · 04/03/2018 20:28

But I'm not going worry about a tiny percentage of men that want to dress up as a woman

But it isn’t those men you are mainly going to have to worry about!

What percentage of men harass women, are sex pests, rapists, opportunists?

The whole point is those men won’t have to ‘dress up’, not at all.

And right now you can sit in that toilet with the door shut fairly confident that any man who followed you in there will be confronted and removed. Or that a man would get in trouble for hanging over the top of your stall (he’ll say you were being transphobic and that that never happened) or that a group of men wouldn’t already be in there leering as you pushed through to the stall.

That will no longer be the case. Any man will be able to walk in to the toilets, the changing rooms, a women’s hospital ward, a tape centre, and will never, ever be challenged.

And it’s going to be a hell of a lot less effort for those men to just walk into any vulnerable woman’s space than actually having to date/marry one. Or they can do both.

They will be able to do so without fear of any repercussions.

Riverside2 · 04/03/2018 20:29

Upstart, thank you.

You know what I think that shows in part - that many men want more privacy to do their business?

NameChanger22, I must admit I didn't reply to you before because I thought you might be being goady, but re your statement about toilets.

Let's imagine typical work loos - toilet cubicles with sinks outside. yes I can lock the door while I pee, but now any male member of staff can come along and use the same bathroom - so if you've been harassed at work, your harasser can legitimately hang around behind that closed door waiting for you.

in a shopping centre with a similar set up, a woman goes in, sees a man at the sink waiting for a woman to attack, and she can't even say to him " this is the women's, get out".

and they don't need to "dress as a woman" to get into that bathroom - whatever "dressing as a woman" means. So that's why it's a problem.

And employers etc are not going to change their bathroom set up to incorporate the sink and have floor to ceiling doors and walls for each cubicle. They are going to tell us we are being transphobic for requesting it.

PositivelyPERF · 04/03/2018 20:32

I swear Truscum, if this self ID crap goes through, I will be wearing a jacket cam in every female only area, ready to activate it as soon as any man shows the slightest hint of being a creep. Come to think of it, any man that tries to bully his way into a female only space is already a creep.

NameChanger22 · 04/03/2018 20:34

There's a lot of 'what ifs' on this thread, speculating about something that hasn't happened yet. Maybe it would be more useful to focus on the abuse that is actually happening right now on a large scale - mostly in people's homes. Most women know their abusers, most are married to them.

Men haven't had to dress up to be sex pests in the past, I don't think many are going to start now.

PositivelyPERF · 04/03/2018 20:35

NameChanger22 you haven’t answered my question about women’s feelings.

PleaseDontGoadTheToad · 04/03/2018 20:37

Men haven't had to dress up to be sex pests in the past, I don't think many are going to start now.

And they still won't have to dress up. That's the whole point of self identification.

SnibbleAgain · 04/03/2018 20:37

I didn't realise about how woman-y toilets are until recently and a colleague struck up a convo about menopause in there.

Then it struck me I suppose I take it for granted but in work loos we do makeup, chat a bit, it's where women go to hide if they are upset, where women go for a private chat if something happens (not my style but woman getting upset and hiding in bogs and other woman going in to talk to her us not uncommon), we need to wash blood off hands (discreetly) sometimes, on xmas party day there's women in there doing hair, makeup, having a party really Grin

I can't imagine that stuff going on if men are allowed in. I don't want to do my makeup in front of a man I work with, it would be weird.

I think that probably many women are used to it and don't really notice and therefore value these things, we will miss them when they're gone.

MontyMight · 04/03/2018 20:37

Women's feeling don't matter PERF. Only men's feelings

NameChanger22 · 04/03/2018 20:38

If men wander into the women's toilets in the shopping center, they will be told to leave by most of the women in there to get out. They will then leave. It hasn't happened yet, I don't think it's going to happen. Worry about it if it ever does.

SnibbleAgain · 04/03/2018 20:38

?

It will potentially be a hate crime to ask them to leave.

Riverside2 · 04/03/2018 20:39

NameChanger22 "Men haven't had to dress up to be sex pests in the past, I don't think many are going to start now"

again, no one is asking them to dress up.

As for speculating - I read the notes from the first Parliamentary debate - okay, there's a time lag between the first and last debate - but honestly, I think there were only 2 objections to self ID in the first debate. Can we really get from 2 objections to the point where it won't pass in the House of Commons?

also the number of incidents that have already occurred in the US states which already allow this - pretty high.

I agree that men don't need an extra reason to harm women but that's exactly the problem - this makes it even easier for them to do so.

thebewilderness · 04/03/2018 20:40

There's a lot of 'what ifs' on this thread, speculating about something that hasn't happened yet.
No one can force you to learn from history. We can only offer what we have learned so far.

NameChanger22 · 04/03/2018 20:40

PositivelyPERF - sorry I didn't answer your question because I don't know what a TIM is. I've never heard of it before.