"Wrong bathroom" sign in university toilet

[PinkChestnut]

I peak transed a while ago, but then have leveled out recently and taken the live and let live approach in my thinking.

However this sign in a Scottish university bathroom, designed by transpeople, bothers me.

"they are using the facilities they feel safe in - please do not take that right away from them"

So if there's a petite young woman in the toilets beside a 6'3 muscular male appearanced person and she feels uncomfortable, where does she go to feel safe? The disabled toilet?

Also "don't challenge them" sounds wrong to me. Like they're untouchable. What if they're acting inappropriate?

What on earth are you talking about.

This is about men, not about tall women.

Toilets aren't segregated on height.

Maggie I dont think anyone has suggested that your height could be an issue?

It's, you know, cock, that's the issue.

What's vile about discussing a sign basically saying "women, if you're scared or feel uncomfortable by a man being in the toilets, tough shit"?

This pretence that a tall woman or a butch woman are basically the same as men is incredibly misogynistic.

Lesbians have put up for years people (mainly men) saying oh she looks like a bloke, she thinks she's a bloke, etc

She's a woman, just because a woman doesn't conform to the prevailing preferences in male dominated society of how she should look does not mean she is not a woman.

Note, equally and from the same misogynistic standpoint, the idea that a man donning the trappings of femininty = a woman is insulting.

Now of course the goalposts have moved and "women can look however they want" includes TW who "look like" AKA ARE men (beards etc).

"Women should never be told that they should ignore their discomfort with male bodied individuals no matter how much of the TRA ideology you've swallowed. For a university to endorse the idea that women and girls should ignore their instincts out of politeness, especially in situations where they might be particularly vulnerable, is so fucking irresponsible it's unreal."

stitchglitched Yes to this. It's astounding that young student females are expected to lap this up.

Now I wonder if, when I accompany DD on University visits in a few years time, I have to check all the toilet facilities and asking them what they do to keep females safe on campus.

presumably you look fairly female, so no worries.
Here's the thing about toilets. Recently I have been working with a young girl who has just started her periods. As we all know it's easy to be caught out and start when you are unprepared. At the moment I feel reasonably confident in saying to her, don't worry, if it happens and you are out shopping or something, just go to the Ladies, anyone you see there will understand and probably want to help you.
How much longer will I be able to say this?
That men don't think of this as a real problem just proves how little they understand.

The original poster suggested that a 6ft3 "masculine" and muscular looking person would intimidate other petite women. Who are you to decide if I look feminine enough to be okay to use the ladies toilet? Toilets have cubicles and I'd hate to think you and your hate brigade are going to eye me up as I enter the cubicle to see if I am not tall enough or masculine enough to rape you. Would you prefer it if I make myself look super girly and grow my hair long so that I confirm to your stupid gender stereotypes? Have you thought about how these comments make less traditionally feminine looking women feel? How hard it is to read that others may be threatened by me?

Any toilet is at risk of men entering to attack or assault women. It's not trans people or tall females that provide this risk, it's deviants and rapists and I can't see how you don't see the difference? No-one has asked you not to challenge someone who is planning to attack you, just to accept that not everyone looks exactly like you.

@thegoldenbough ... so you think that rapists and murderers have never used a gents toilet? And that pre trans debate there were/have never been deviant women who use the ladies toilet? You know women and non trans men also commit crime right?

What on earth are you getting at, magggie? I'm also a 6 foot woman who ocassionally gets called sir. Nobody has ever said that I make them uncomfortable in loos Very weird. Humans are generally very good at working out if other humans are male or female. Literally, our species depends on it...

No-one has asked you not to challenge someone who is planning to attack you,

And how do I know if they are planning to attack me?

No-one has asked you not to challenge someone who is planning to attack you

Actually they kind of are saying that. You are not allowed to challenge somebody even if you don't believe they are in the women's toilet for 'innocent' reasons. Women rely on instinct and they are being told to suppress that to be polite to men.

Oh, you're one of those.

And FYI I was attacked by a man who was very much a man in a women’s toilet. He followed me in and knew that there was no one else about. He was not trans, just an opportunist.

I know that just because there is a picture of a woman on the door it won’t afford women some magical protection but it does give you the ability to challenge a man in a female space.

Remember how toilets used to be segregated in America for black and white people because people were indoctrinated to believe that the white people might catch something or be attacked by the black people? Can you see how we now look on those people as being ridiculous and racist? Can you not see that that is how future generations will look at you?

@simonbridges I agree, best not to have rapists in toilets. 100 percent behind you on that. But this is not that discussion.

My university have male AND female signs on the toilets but only in my department. I avoid using them in case a man is in there.

Why do you think we segregate spaces on biological sex then ?

MM, has anyone ever challenged you in a toilet?

Do you object to sex segregated spaces in general then Maggie? Hospital wards, rape crisis centres, prisons?

Right so.

How can we tell the difference between a potential rapist and a trans identifying female who looks exactly like a man...because they are in fact...a biological male ?

Will the rapist be wearing a sign ?

I've been sharing changing rooms at Long Tall Sally and other tall shops with trans people since I was a child. I use the individual cubicles. No problem. We are all there to buy clothes. I've also never been attacked by women using a changing room in a normal shop either. Just FYI.

I’m not sure what you point is.

The vast majority of sexual violence is carried out by men. Males. The ones with penises.

What’s the figure ? 98% of sexual violence is carried out by men is it ?

What I object to is saying all trans people may rape us. We can't make toilets 100 percent safe. Like we can't make anywhere 100 percent safe. The only thing we have any control over is how decent we are to other human beings.

Being in a changing room in a shop is different though.
I was in a shop the other day and both DH and I were trying on clothes in adjacent cubicles.
However these changing rooms opened directly into the shop and there were staff nearby.
It’s very different to being behind a closed door and in a vulnerable position like urinating or changing a tampon.

As it is I don’t have a huge issue with transwomen using the female toilets. What I have an issue with is being told that I am not allowed to challenge anyone who I don’t think should be there.

Literally no one has said that.

Maggie if unisex spaces are okay why can't trans identifying/ gender questioning males use the men's toilets?