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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's Talk about White Feminism

342 replies

MagnificentDelurker · 27/02/2018 21:40

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

OP posts:
hackmum · 02/03/2018 13:46

I thought the OP was being perfectly reasonable. I think people must have assumed from the title that it was going to be an attack on white feminism, and then continued in that belief without reading what the OP actually wrote.

I also think it's pretty nasty to attack the OP for being incoherent when English is her second language. How many of us could write a coherent, clear post in another language?

Satorye · 02/03/2018 13:52

Islam will never be compatible with radical feminism. Period.

JenniferJames · 02/03/2018 14:04

Too easy. ;-)

That's one out of the five. dangles bait

nauticant · 02/03/2018 14:06

You could always stop stirring you know. You could put your ego away for once.

JenniferJames · 02/03/2018 14:10

Two. Oh come on... fish in a barrel.

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 14:18

I also think it's pretty nasty to attack the OP for being incoherent when English is her second language.

Since that’s directed at me, it wasn’t her use of language that I found incoherent.

And please note that at the point I said that, I had no reason to think English was her second/an additional language. She didn’t say so in the OP and I didn’t assume it.

I would never use a poster’s competence in English as a way to ‘attack’ them, and I think ‘nasty’ is a bit strong, tbh.

DodoPatrol · 02/03/2018 14:21

What on earth is going on here? Are all politicians/ex-politicians/would-be politicians now trained in the art of the snarky adolescent comeback or something?

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 02/03/2018 14:28

Tell you what Jen, if a barney with a bunch of properly goady fuckers would be a relief to your feelings at this point, AIBU rarely disappoints

picklemepopcorn · 02/03/2018 15:46

Settle down people. Stop stirring.

JenniferJames · 02/03/2018 19:06

Four little fishes. Just one bigger one left to catch...

LangCleg · 02/03/2018 20:30

Four little fishes. Just one bigger one left to catch...

Stop it, Jen. We have arguments on here and there's a wide range of opinion. But we don't have personal feuds that distract from everybody else's conversations. This isn't the Labour Party (and I say that as a member).

hipsterfun · 02/03/2018 20:48

Jen, not sure why you’re being such a GF, but just to check, can you just speak up if you’re trying to imply I’m one of your fish.

Also, I’m beginning to suspect you wrote the OP now.

TERFragetteCity · 02/03/2018 20:56

JJ - do you have a list you can share?

nauticant · 02/03/2018 21:04

I am amused at this business of compiling lists of enemies. It rings a bell for some reason.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:13

Feminds me of wolfie smith and his little black book

That's it mate. Come the revolution, you'll be first against the wall bop-bop-bop

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:14

Feminds???

Reminds obviously Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 21:20

Femind = that thing that comes up in AIBU where people think it's charming and hilarious that they have to constantly remind their husband to pick up his socks/put recycling in the proper bin/replace the loo roll if he finishes it?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:24

Gosh angry is that what its called Shock

Very freudian slip in that case

thebewilderness · 02/03/2018 21:32

Pot, I should like to introduce you to kettle!

"JenniferJames Fri 02-Mar-18 13:15:37

Mumsnet has a problem with those five or six members here who are ao very rude and unwelcoming to new posters. And it seems to always be the same people.

What is wrong with them? Are they threatened that their place in the perceived hierarchy is someone more intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced about THEIR OWN LIVES.

OP you are awesome. Keep going. Haters sit down."

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 21:32

(Hands badge back)

(Ducks for cover just in case I've inadvertently ended up on some list)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:38

Thanks angry

Talking of badges reminds me of the time 3 year old ds1 attempted to stab dh in the back with the pin of his badge

He was quite determined bless him

Happy days

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:40

Mumsnet has a problem with those five or six members here who are ao very rude and unwelcoming to new posters. And it seems to always be the same people.

To be honest thats quite good

What are there like 12 million members and only 5 or 6 are 'rude and unwelcoming'

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 21:54

Oh, so I do need to go sit on the naughty step then?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 02/03/2018 21:58

I dunno angry

Im assuming JJ is including herself in the 'rude' bit

And then there is hipster so thats 2

nauticant so thats 3... there was one before nauticant so thats 4

And she said she was after a 'big fish' and not an 'angry kitten'

So maybe its not you...its very confusing. An up to date list would be nice

AngryAttackKittens · 02/03/2018 22:01

I'm kind of torn between laughing at the irony and wanting to bang my head against the wall in frustration tbh. If a thread was going to go this pear shaped you'd have thought it would be the abortion one, but most people seem to have decided to just stop feeding the trolls on that one.

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