Let's Talk about White Feminism

[MagnificentDelurker]

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white kind all my life. Kinda like putting my hand in my ears and saying la la ... So I feel a bit of an imposter to come and talk about white feminism with some supposed sagacity but here it goes:

First a bit of background: I am an immigrant to UK from a deeply religious and Muslim country. I have been as gender non conforming as you could get in country with mandatory hijab laws. I have argued for women's right as much as I could but still I would never call myself feminist. So it was a delight to discover mumsnet and read writing of so many fiercely intelligent women.

So seeing so many of my sisters getting attacked for supposedly white feminism I had to rant somewhere. I have met many feminist who have been overtly/ inadvertantly racist. Probably not more so than general population but again that is not the point.

Feminism is a women's right movement. Feminist cannot be expected to fight everyone's battle for them. Feminists are humans like most, we (humans) are capable of detailed analysis of situations that are close to our own experience but generally would fill the rest with background noise or stereotypes. We might know in detail how subtle but effective sexism works but at the same time completely black out the experience of being working class man. This is just human.

However, this does not invalidate the experience of a white middle class woman. The suppression is real and she has every right to fight for herself. Her fight has also benefitted me as a muslim women growing up in a different era and a different country. Because women fought for vote, it meant that I did not have to. We were given the right to vote because it became a norm in most countries. I did not have to fight for right to education either. I was automatically educated, again it became the norm. I was albeit begrudgingly admitted to university, was even allowed to choose typically male subject (engineering). In fact, the ratio of women to men in my university (predominately a STEM university) was no different to say US (where I travelled for post graduate studies ) . I am happy that I did not have to fight these battles and I thank (white) feminists for it, even if some were racists. We have our own battles, from fighting mandatory hijab to street harassment, to unfair divorce laws. I am mightily glad that we do not have to fight from square one.

Yes there are times that what is called as white feminism can transgress. But those are not the times when white women are fighting for rights that might only affect a subset of women they belong to in short term. They transgress when they advocate to invade my birth country to free the women. They transgress (in my opinion and I understand that many disagree) when they advocate for banning hijab and hence taking agency away from muslim women. They transgress when they they simplify the experiences of my life as a muslim woman to just being a victim.

None of the above applies in this fight for women's spaces. And I feel very included that these women fight not for banning of my hijab but for spaces that I can feel comfortable taking my hijab (not me specifically as I don't wear hijab but you get my point).

Finally, among marginalised people sometimes those with more power are the only ones with a voice and that does not mean they should not use it.

It is a bit incoherent but just wanted to say you go girl to all of you (and rant a bit)

Brilliant post Mocha. A resounding YES to terrible distortions of Crenshaw. Love the idea of dying your trousers, I might steal that, if I may?

Side note. I am white. I was lucky enough to meet Crenshaw and hear her speak at WOW at Southbank centre a couple of years ago. I'm ashamed to say I hadn't heard of her but I had heard of "intersectionality" as the TRA understand it. I was blown away by her talk, it made so much more sense than the libfem notion!

I've often worked with groups of British black women in community settings and sometimes found it difficult to know what my position was in the group and to act appropriately as a feminist. Crenshaw's ideas are really helpful to me in terms of race, class, sexuality and (dis)ability. However, what has been most helpful in my understanding of race is the experience of being the only white face in a group, which I've had many times. There's nothing like it to make you aware of your own whiteness, in every sense.

I hate the term white feminist, I think it is used very unfairly, too often. Few feminists who work at grass roots level deserve this slur.

Some fantastic posts on this thread, which have made for illuminating reading. Thanks, all.

I'm in agreement with those saying that the point of Crenshaw's work is that black women cannot separate race and gender when analysing their oppression. Crenshaw's study of workplace discrimination illustrates this - society was going about congratulating itself because it had legislated for both workplace discrimination regarding sex AND race, so everyone was covered, right? Congratulations all round. But everyone WASN'T covered - black women weren't covered because firms could get away with employing black people (who were all men) and women (who were all white). So black women had no legal recourse.

And the problem leading to "white feminism" (and indeed, "men's anti-racism) is that activist feminist circles ask black women to prioritise gender over race while activist anti-racist circles ask black women to prioritise race over gender. But black women can't do either of those things because, for them, race and gender combine to form their oppression.

What I will add about "white feminism" is to beware of its use in the pomo or social constructionist or pro-trans SJW circles. Like all other potentially useful terms, it's been turned on its head so that it ends up useless. I have seen these people use "white feminist" as a term of abuse against several black women for being gender critical. I've even seen it used against anti-FGM campaigner Hibo Wardere, for heavens sakes. If you see "white feminism" used in this way online, just ignore it. It doesn't mean anything useful at all.

If a woman of colour tells me I am failing to understand something important about intersectional feminism due to white privilege then I will listen and do my best to learn.

That and what Lang
I probably wasn’t clear in a previous post but I think the issue is that you can’t separate racism and misogyny in what is the experience of WOC.
In effect, to come back to what a PP was saying, in this case, it’s not about 1+1 or
1
+
1
But actually it’s about a 4 or a 10, aka something completely different, even if it has some ressemblance with other things.

But everyone WASN'T covered - black women weren't covered because firms could get away with employing black people (who were all men) and women (who were all white). So black women had no legal recourse.

I’m relatively new to these boards and relatively new to feminism. I am white and middle aged and reading intently and trying to learn. This thread is a whole new level of education to me. Thanks for delurking OP.

One thing that has crossed my mind, watching the trans debate raging on Twitter has been the frequency with which TIMs try to conflate the struggles of women of colour with their own struggles. I have seen women from all different backgrounds fighting together and defending one another as fellow women, regardless of race or sexual orientation. And I have felt that was a wonderful thing.

the frequency with which TIMs try to conflate the struggles of women of colour with their own struggles.

Yes. If black women are women then trans women are also women. Are you saying that black women are not women? You racist.

That sort of thing.

Thank you women for your kind remarks.

I hadn't thought of that a simple (and cheaper) felt tip pen so that's a great suggestion. I kept thinking that I don't want it to look accidental so dye it would have to be but that may well work. The trousers are cotton denim and they've already been damaged blue ink so the slattern look is already achieved. :D

I'd have loved to have heard Crenshaw live and in the flesh. I'm feeling very envious. :)

@LangCleg
I too have come to view the words "white feminism/ist" as unfair in too many instances because I have cringed too often at how it's used in places like Everyday Feminism.

This is not to say I don't feel exasperated with white women a lot and some of those are indeed feminists but I know that it's not their fault.
One of the things I learned from being in this Earth for 42 years is that racism is ubiquitous. It was in my within my own mixed race house as I grew up. You should hear my mum and my aunties, effectively grading the younger generations according to skin hue and nappiness of hair a few years ago. Some of them grew out of this kind of talk in time and with a little consciousness raising in their careers, with raising the next generations and listening to them, with music, with songs, but I still heard from my own dad's mouth about the now Portuguese prime minister were that he was "A bit too black!" for him to support him (yes, you read that right). Racism is that insidious and it requires a lot of soul-searching and mind training and I'm not sure it goes away completely even then. I could tell you more but this has been extensively written about already and the literature is out there.

This is all to say that even if I facepalm, curse and complain about white women in my intimate or with close friends (which I do), it's from a place of frustration and not blame and more woc than the media would have us all believe feel more or less the same way.

Crucially, this is exactly one of the reasons I don't like many of the undertones of lib feminism. It nitpicks and pits woman against woman without providing solutions or even suggestions to their problems and improving their lives. Quite the opposite, it seeks to give women a fake sense of control over their lives usually by making them agents in their own exploitation and when that doesn't work it doesn't try to find other ways. Well at least that the only way I can see its various stances on porn, prostitution and the like... but then I'm a socialist as well as a feminist so I'd see it that way.

In any case, I'd say woc forgive a lot more than they snap at white women. It sometimes gets tricky because everyone has hearts and they get wounded but conflict is not all bad and sometimes it's needed. I think women are stronger in handling it than they give themselves credit for.

... and what would conflict free feminism be good for anyway?

I share in the optimism in @Triliteration's post I hope this isn't misplaced but I sense that a big wave could reach our shores if we all keep at it. I hope it's more second wave than the yada that post-modern yada that has been used to keep us in check and not just women or feminists. It needs to happen because it is still the case that what happens in the certain key countries informs a lot of what happens elsewhere and some places are still fighting esentialist concepts like menstrual curse

Learning what's been happening has woken me up and not just to the persistence of woman centered feminism (I really thought it was dead here) but to a pernicious form of authoritarianism that should get the men worried too but it hasn't really affected them... yet.

@Tells

I never know whether to laugh or to cry at that one.

I too have come to view the words "white feminism/ist" as unfair in too many instances because I have cringed too often at how it's used in places like Everyday Feminism. This is not to say I don't feel exasperated with white women a lot and some of those are indeed feminists but I know that it's not their fault.

Exactly this.

I see it as "white feminism" when white women suggest that black women are derailing the feminist conversation by bringing up issues of race. This is unacceptable because, as Crenshaw's work shows, black women can't separate the two. I see it as "white feminism" when people like Mary Beard use racially-loaded terms such as "civilised" - this is what she did the other day that caused the shitstorm and it wasn't intentional but it did reveal underlying and thoughtless bias on her part.

I don't see it as "white feminism" when it's used as slur to silence women talking about the inequality they live within SJW oppression Olympics circles. And I don't see it as "white feminism" when women assert the source of their oppression is their female biology.

Someone using the phrase identity politics in a discussion about race is a very easy way to find someone who’s never had to consider the effect of race on their life.

That’s quite a statement.

This thread reminded me of a radio program I listened to a few months ago with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie speaking eloquently about her Nigerian grandmothers feminism so I think we should be a little careful not to think that feminism is restricted to western women's fight for equality/liberation and so predominantly white. Women in other countries have undoubtedly fought/are fighting too and their struggles, successes and challenges are as relevant if not always as well known. Given that women are oppressed (to a greater or lesser extent depending on the culture and time) across the world I think feminism is pretty much a universal movement. Perhaps bringing the work of those women into the conversation might help defang the 'white feminism' insult, although I think it's really just another way to dismiss women (of any ethnicity).

Caught the start of this programme the other day talking about the idea of race as an identity and how controversial that is. It was fascinating, this thread has reminded me to listen to the end of it
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09sn7ym

Lawrence Hoo is allowed to say it, but this thread (and many others) would suggest that it’s somehow not ok for me to agree with every word.

Quentin, I was distracted when it was broadcast on Tuesday so thanks for prompting me to give it my full attention.

I enjoyed the noun/adjective idea particularly.

Still haven't listened to it all, but a lot of what was said at the beginning about the identity being externally imposed on you by how others perceive you really resonated with me as a woman. I found it very interesting that as a white woman I shared that feeling with black men.

Yes. If black women are women then trans women are also women. Are you saying that black women are not women? You racist.

That sort of thing.

Exactly Tell. And Mocha, I’m glad you share my optimism.

I completely disagree that women"s liberation is decadent and from the West. Women everywhere resent being subordinate to men.

An example is the feminist scholars of Timbuktu.

Well, the noun/adjective thing was pertinent to exactly that. I appreciated hearing a fresh take and enjoyed hearing it from a man, as it happens, because it was so sympathetic and not at all mansplainy

Finished now. Wow. I might start a whole thread on it. They talked about the power of using a descriptor (skin colour, sex class) to categorise people and how that enables the people at the top to keep those underneath in their place. EXACTLY how I feel about gender and they recognised the parallels too.
I'm done with gender as much as they are done with race.
"How do you identify?" "As a human"
Brilliant powerful stuff.

Thank you to PPs who clarified the sex work, hijab, feminist choices thing.

And thank you to everyone for their well thought out posts. I'm one of the people slowly being educated, from a position of really quite shocking ignorance.

I'm asking this on another thread too, but want to check how this sits with the things identified about 'white feminism' here. Would a list of feminist concerns help or hinder? So, feminism is about.... I'm thinking of why Munroe Bergdorf doesn't get to say feminism isn't about biology, for example.

I’m thinking MB gets to say whatever they like.

I also think it’s reasonable for anyone to question the validity of the argument (such as it may be).

Personally, I think checking people’s papers to see to what degree, if any, they are entitled to say things isn’t a very efficient way of going about things.

But apologies if I misunderstand what you’re saying.

pickle listen to the podcast!

In my opinion feminism is for females. Females are oppressed because we are a valuable resource - we bear all the children. Men who can control women are at an advantage- they get to pass on their genes. Our oppression results from that control.

I don't you can separate biology from feminism.
It would be like telling black lives matter not to talk about race.

Everyone of course is welcome to their own opinion but i just dont understand how someone could talk about feminism without biology. What's left? Seriously.

Mumsnet has a problem with those five or six members here who are ao very rude and unwelcoming to new posters. And it seems to always be the same people.

What is wrong with them? Are they threatened that their place in the perceived hierarchy is someone more intelligent, knowledgeable and experienced about THEIR OWN LIVES.

OP you are awesome. Keep going. Haters sit down.

Oh, please don't use the word 'haters'. It makes anyone sound about 14.

Still, at least you didn't spell it with a z.

Thanks Jennifer

Found this interesting, in an obvious kind of way.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/02/boris-johnson-white-privilege-black-woman?CMP=fb_gu