Can Pro-lifers be feminists?

[DevilsAdvocate123]

I am personally pro-choice, but in my 60 years, I have encountered pro-life feminists. Many of which asked that many other feminists try to "revoke their feminist cards", since they are pro-life.

I've asked them if it were sexist to be pro-life, and they explained these points to me:

-They entirely believe in the equality of men and women
-The reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-If men could bear children, their opinion of abortion would be the exact same, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex
-They want to save babies of all genders, as the reasoning behind the pro-life stance has nothing to do with sex

I'm a fairly reasonable person. I've had discussions with liberals that think socialism is evil, I've had discussions with gays that believe a private business can do business with whomever it chooses, and I've talked with gun rights advocates that staunchly believe in background checks. I like to hear people out. I get things.

In this instance, I believe I understand where the pro-life feminists are coming from when they say they are still feminists.

Should the feminist community embrace these people into the community and work together, or should these people be shunned from the feminist community and not welcome?

How can you write a post like your one at 13:45 and then conclude those statements aren't sexist?

Only women can bear children. It doesn't matter if people would theoretically oppress men, chocolate bars or martians on the same basis. You are talking about a state which only applies to women, therefore these views are sexist. And you can't be sexist and feminist.

Mind you, I've only just clocked your user name so...

hat argument is entirely rooted in trying to shame the person seeking the abortion. Most anti-choice arguments are. That's why the language used is so emotive

It's the exact opposite, ffs. I'm pro choice to birth. We are sick of being told that its always a difficult decision, that its a huge deal. Sure for some it is, for others not at all. For some women it is a simple choice and a basic medical procedure.
Stop using women in your arguments, especially when you can't tell pro choice from anti, even when you've been told which it is [hmm

"Today 13:53 DevilsAdvocate123

If this is their philosophical reasoning, then I genuinely believe that these people aren't coming from a place of sexism".
But those are just your usual bog standard forced birth arguments, whether the person making them claims to be a feminist or not. And anyone making them is practically by definition not a feminist because of the bodily autonomy thing. Whether or not it's sexist is irrelevant.

The phrase "if men could bear children" bears as much relevance to a discussion on abortion imo as "if babies were all grown in incubators and we lived on the moon" or "if storks delivered babies from fairy dust".

They don't. It's utterly irrelevant as it's so far from the actuality of life. If men had babies, maybe we would live in a complete reverse matriarchy (except they'd then be the mothers, so would it still be called a matriarchy?) or it could be an equal rights utopia. Who knows, it's just made up ideas based on impossible whataboutery.

If your reason for being opposed to abortion is that rights of the foetus trump the rights of the woman there can be no exceptions. And vice versa.

This isn't true.

I'm anti abortion because I value the life of the unborn baby. But if there are say medical reasons that will make that baby's life unbearable then I think abortion should be considered because I value the child's life.

I love how people come on and say "you cant think this" as though the opinions of others haven't been carefully thought about before being reached. Some MNers seem to think they're the thought police, it's unnecessary and patronising.

I'm anti abortion because I value the life of the unborn baby. But if there are say medical reasons that will make that baby's life unbearable then I think abortion should be considered because I value the child's life”

That’s still putting the rights and needs of the fetus first.

No, you can't be a feminist and be pro-forced-birth.

Feminism isn't about some ephemeral idea of equality. It's political movement that works towards the liberation of women from patriarchy.

Only women can give birth, women's reproductive labour is the prime motivator behind patriarchal norms of inequality, forcing women into reproductive labour is the epitome of women's subjugation.

Pro-forced-birth stances and women's liberation are incompatible on all levels.

The idea that anti-choice believers would feel the same if it were men who gave birth are, frankly, fooling themselves. If men gave birth, this wouldn't even be a discussion.

That’s still putting the rights and needs of the fetus first.

But is that such an unreasonable position from someone who genuinely believes the foetus is intrinsically human?

Yes, Amethyst; because then you choose to put the mother last.

“But is that such an unreasonable position from someone who genuinely believes the foetus is intrinsically human?”

No. But it was being used as an argument against the position that you either think the foetus or the woman take priority-there can be no middle ground.

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

Yes, Amethyst; because then you choose to put the mother last.

But if you believe that the foetus is human enough to warrant the human right of 'right to life', then surely, unless it's a case of the mother's life being in danger as a result of the pregnancy or birth, then that's a good argument for the mother not to come first?

Could the right to life not be said to trump most other rights?

"Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?"

What, like one called "feminism chat"?

There are philosophical arguments, all well covered.

Then there are practical/sociological, political arguments. The countries with the most legal access to abortions are also the countries with the lowest rates of abortion and best outcomes for women. In the few countries with no legal abortions (like Nicaragua), they still have high abortion rates, with the added issue of women's deaths (82 in 11 months according to Human Rights Watch).

We know legal abortion is associated with low rates of abortion, earlier abortion and good outcomes for women. Illegal abortion is associated with higher abortion rates and high maternal mortality as well. Why would anyone, never mind a feminist, be against legal abortion if they want good outcomes? If you are a feminist and want low abortion rates, from a purely practical POV you should want free, accessible and legal abortion. Less late term and dangerous abortions. The 'worst' ones.

So I can only conclude that people who want abortion to be illegal, don't have good logic skills or have some other reason for wanting to restrict women's choices. Which is often internalized misogyny.

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

This is comedy gold. May I suggest not going on Feminist Chat if you want to avoid... feminists chatting.

No. But it was being used as an argument against the position that you either think the foetus or the woman take priority-there can be no middle ground.

Ah, ok.

Is there not a separate web page you feminist types can use?

This is the oddest thing I've ever seen here

But is that such an unreasonable position from someone who genuinely believes the foetus is intrinsically human?

Yes, because it suggests that they are putting the woman last, behind the interests of the foetus.

Hey so another point that was brought up:

"Even if the same pro-life reasoning would apply to men if they could get pregnant, it's irrelevant, as men can't get pregnant in this world. Since only women can get pregnant, the pro-life stance is sexist."

The pro-life response to this point is very simple: mother nature made this difference. Nature made it so that only women can bear children. The pro-life stance didn't dictate this. Just because one gender is only applicable for being the child's carrier, doesn't mean that the pro-life stance is coming from a place of sexism.

The US system does seem very sexist. Men can still get Viagra on Medicaid, or a sex change. Women who have had a termination can lose their job and home.

The thing I find with most people who are anti abortion is that they are considering the issue of abortion as though it has no context.

Abortion does not exist in a vacuum. It exists within male supremacist society; a society which oppresses girls and women both for and via our reproductive capacity.
Abortion exists within a society in which fathers are let off from their share of child rearing. And within a society in which girls and women are expected to provide sex for men regardless of the risks PIV poses to women.

I am pro choice to term. I wish I didn't have to be because I would prefer abortion to not be necessary. But it is necessary and most of the reasons why it is necessary are because of Patriarchy.

This is why IMO anti abortion arguments are not feminist. Because they do not include feminist analysis of the wider issues many of which are out with women's control.

Just because one gender is only applicable for being the child's carrier, doesn't mean that the pro-life stance is coming from a place of sexism.

Except it does. For someone who says they are pro-choice, you seem very invested in your friends' views....

Good point @Beachcomber

I support a lot of young mums professionally. Young mums, pretty much always. Because the fathers are; absent, high, in jail, violent, with someone else, not interested... these women are 100% left carrying the emotional, physical and financial burden alone.

But some of these men are the types who think men deserve equal say in pregnancies continuing.

And a lot of these women had underage or coercive relationships so their 'free choice' to get pregnant was non-existent.

Exactly TheButterflyOfTheStorms.

Women should at the very least have the choice to continue with a pregnancy or not as too often their being pregnant is not a meaningful choice and they are inevitably the ones left holding the baby when the father acts like a dick.

I have no time for prolifers who are not spending significant amounts of time fighting against the abuse, exploitation and disregard for female reproductive capacity that we see the world over.

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett You just dismissed it without providing reasoning.

To address those that are talking about abortion in context with our society: None of that influences the morality behind killing the unborn child.