If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

[Italiangreyhound]

Why has the trans narrative become so successful at hoodwinking people?

I am so sad that this has made me feel less compassion for trans people. I am sorry for them but I'm angry that their cause has been hijacked by cross dressing men.

I know this has been said before but I wonder if women are seen so much as a commodity, a package. Men can appropriate that package, for as much as they wish to, and have perhaps always done this. But what is so troubling now is the belief by some that men can become women, but they will always be more than women, because men are seen as real, where as we are a commodity.

I know this is stupid but I am struck by that line from Pretty Woman, where Richard Gere asks Julia Roberts her name and she says "What do you want it to be?"

I think men want to buy into that sexy/slutty/woman as property idea, because it is appealing to them, but because they don't realise we are real people, and so much more, they cannot for a moment understand us.

It is only when trans women are thinking and acting more like the women I know (caring for others/speaking out for women's rights) that I feel them to be anywhere approximating 'woman'! So conversely the more they shout for their rights, the more India Willoughby booms 'I'm a woman." the less I believe them!

Plus I admit that in the past I've given trans women the benefit of the doubt because as a woman that is what I tend to do. But I think I want to develop a 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' stance.

Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!? I want to extend the same 'benefit of the doubt' that most humans give other humans rather than the benefit of the doubt most women extend to other women, if that makes sense!

[AngryAttackKittens]

@Italiangreyhound

It's funny, on the first thread I talked to you on I remember feeling like you were really distressed by my refusal to adopt a caretaking, sympathetic stance towards harv and try to find some form of compromise with him. Do you get now why I refused to do that?

[Italiangreyhound]

Yes, @AngryAttackKittens I do.

XX

[AngryAttackKittens]

I feel like with the whole peak thing most women start out really wanting to be nice and to find a compromise, but then eventually you figure out that compromise has to work both ways and if you're trying to compromise and the other person refuses to they just end up taking advantage of your good nature.

[thebewilderness]

At some point I think that the tolerance demanded of women becomes instead a demand for submission.

[LangCleg]

I honestly think the first peak trans people feel is just base camp on a journey of peaks. And eventually, we all end up at a no pasaran, no negotiating with terrorists standpoint, as you put it AAK.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Analogy also works in that some people reach base camp and decide that they can't handle going any further, some turn back, and only the most ornery and determined decide to keep climbing.

[Datun]

Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!?

Asking, sorry, demanding that women retain their rights is not showing a lack of humanity to anyone.

Women have fought for decades for every single scrap of legislation.

It's really not our responsibility to feel as though we need to dot all the I's and cross all the T's in terms of how to make this 'work' for everybody.

It works just fine if the exemptions to the equality act are invoked.

And by invoked, I mean shouted from the rooftops, demanded they are used at every opportunity and fight tooth and nail to change the narrative.

Transwomen are not women. Either biologically, or under the equality act.

Autogynephilia feel needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

Women's biology is something that is pertinent to women and women only. And the narrative surrounding that, both privately and publicly, needs to be not just acknowledged, but celebrated.

You're talking about a minuscule number of people, who are making changes to the entire population, not just women.

Humanity doesn't come into it, unless it's they who are ignoring it.

[BigDeskBob]

"Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!? I want to extend the same 'benefit of the doubt' that most humans give other humans rather than the benefit of the doubt most women extend to other women, if that makes sense!"

You can be sympathetic to someone's issues, but still recognise that it's nothing to do with you. I'm not a paid counselor, I'm not their mother. I'm interested in feminism, not trans rights. Why should I stop what I want to do to look after someone else, ultimately at my expense?

Isn't feminism about ridding us of gender roles - surely one of the biggest, most damaging ones is the female role of being everyone's carer and putting everyone else first.

There's a difference between kicking someone and putting your own needs first.

[BigDeskBob]

I wonder if the nice, doesn't want to step on women toes, knows they are not female, transexuals, ever existed. At least in the numbers people are claiming?

How many MIT have come onto mumsnet claiming to be a nice one, but at the same time claimed to be female and are happy to use women facilities? They claim no one is intimidated by them because no women has complained about their presence. How can they claim to be 'us', when they don't understand how we are likely to behave and take advantage of it?

[LangCleg]

I wonder if the nice, doesn't want to step on women toes, knows they are not female, transexuals, ever existed. At least in the numbers people are claiming?

I think they did (if my own friend is anything to go by). But no, not in the numbers that people are claiming. The population of such people is tiny. While the population of males with paraphilia-influenced identity disorders is comparatively large.

Not every male has a sexual motive for transition (ie, gay males wanting to sleep with straight men aka HSTS, third gender etc; straight males getting off on feminine presentation aka AGP). There are some people with catastrophic body dysmorphia and some people who are genuinely in retreat from masculinity.

But these people have nothing whatsoever to do with transactivism or transactivists and the reason we don't hear from them is not that they're the silent majority - it's that the population is tinier than tiny.

[Mouthandtrousersall]

This is a form of harassment, which should not be facilitated by discrimination law.

[TerfyTheCuntingTerf]

At a slight tangent to the conversation, I'm really getting sick of the NAMALT argument. Scandal after scandal after scandal, from abuse among Catholic priests, to Rotherham to the BBC to Jimmy Saville to Harvey Weinstein to Oxfam, and STILL the NAMALT arguments is being bleated at us at every opportunity.

Fuck. That.

Maybe not all men rape, but it's becoming clear to me that an awful are willing to stand by and let it happen.

[hairycoo]

I think im of the mind that they can self identify all they want, but they just dont get any of the actual legal rights until they snip their bits off. As for competing in sports etc, Im not entirely sure how that would work, perhaps there needs to be a completely separate section, as even with hormones i assume someone who used to be a man would still have a distinct advantage over a woman, even if they were taking hormones.

[TerfyTheCuntingTerf]

They absolutely do exist. The overall numbers as Langcleg has said though are tiny. A few are at the forefront of this (have had the surgery, dress as women, use men's toilets and do not assume the label "woman") and stand with us but I believe many many others of this small community are far too scared to take a stand.

I believe they exist too although agree there's probably far fewer of them than I've previously been thinking.

Looking at it in terms of men, lots of them claim to be feminist allies, but in reality very few of them get it and understand the concept of male privilege. Some really do seem to get it -- Miranda Yardley and Gabriel Blessing (?) are two voices on Twitter that I'm grateful for.

(But I'm also aware of a knee jerk tendency in myself to value the opinions of men more which bears examining. New to all this)

[waterlego6064]

Sorry, bit of a tangent, but I’ve been down a TRA Twitter wormhole and came across this gem. Kevin is more feminine than people who were born female. Even though he can’t even be bothered to give himself a female name on the internet- which really couldn’t be easier!

Penises are female organs, and Kevin is a woman’s name. 😂

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

Kevin.

That's just...brilliant

[thebewilderness]

Here is a link to the appropriate response (in my opinion) to NAMALT.
kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

[Myunicornfliessideways]

Interesting reading the comments on that article bewilderness . Somewhat depressing to see women immediately saying 'but what if the man setting off your warning signals/invading your boundaries has Autism? Or you're acting from subconsciously ingrained racial/cultural prejudice?'

Because obviously it's the job of a woman to check she has thorough met a man's potential needs and is being scrupulously fair before she can be allowed do something that may hurts his feelings. Even to protect herself when he's the aggressor and the one behaving badly and she is scared.

[Italiangreyhound]

@Datun, I asked "Any tips of how to do this without losing my humanity!?"

You said "Asking, sorry, demanding that women retain their rights is not showing a lack of humanity to anyone."

I know, I phrased that badly. What I should have said is that I used to care deeply about trans people and their rights. The longer I read all this shit (the male nurse thing was another peak on the Trans women are/boys in Girl Guides and males wanting to work at 'domestic violence' refuges thing for me!

I'm not even sure anymore how the laws work. When I say I want a female health care provider, can I wait until a female arrives, or is a male with a GRC legally female now, even though we know they are not!

I'm now less caring, I feel, I'm not saying others are (at all). I am saying I am less caring.

[macbethh]

I don't believe that the sex of a woman is defined by her genitals (eg. I still would think of females born without vaginas as women) however I do believe the sex of a woman is defined by her chromosomes.