If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

Self ID looks more and more as though it is intended to deprive people suffering dysphoria of treatment and deprive women of safe spaces.

Self ID is very dangerous.

A man cannot in his mind decide what a woman is and self ID as it.

But a careful procedure can help to make a path for people who wish to transition. IMHO.

Can I draw a comparison? I am an adopter, we adopted a child. We spent almost two years on the process. Some people call it jumping through hoops. But I think it is necessary.

So had I been able to go through the process quicker, would I? No, it was needed.

And I think that the processes we all go through to enable us to do things should be fair, and should not be as easy as they can be.

Does adopting my child make me his biological mother? No. It does not. I love him as much as my biological child. But I cannot lie to him.

I don't lie to the doctor either when she or he asks what is in his family medical history, I admit the truth, I don't completely know.

Does it make him any less loved, or any less my child, legally. No, it does not. But it does mean his and my biological reality are not that of mother and son as it normally affects others.

Sorry, I know we are meant to be listening to reasons why people are pro self ID, and I am all ears, if anyone cares to share. But not until they can also tell me how they are going to stop this happening....

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/outrage-transgender-prisoner-living-woman-12022675

Plus it's not even just about being law abiding and peaceful, I don't want to change in front of a male, my FIL is lovely and very law abiding and peaceful but I don't want to change in front of him!

@Myunicornfliessideways Your examples of trans abled, trans BAME people, trans age people, all make perfect sense. We would not expect people to be able to identify into an old age pension or into an infants school!

PencilsInSpace Your post at Sun 18-Feb-18 10:23:37* is excellent and clear.

@thebewilderness "Self ID looks more and more as though it is intended to deprive people suffering dysphoria of treatment and deprive women of safe spaces."

It really does, well it will be a cost saving because no need to pay for counselling, drugs, hormones or surgery, and women, well who cares about them.

These discussions need to stop being about [what is a woman] and start being about what istrans.

Do we believe it's possible to change sex?
What actually is dysphoria?
Is dysphoria worse than other illnesses? Worse than cancer? Anorexia? Heart disease, depression?

What actually is a [genuine transwomen]?
Is appropriate treatment for dysphoria to make people lie to them?

Do people really feel the utmost sympathy for men with dysphoria? Would they really fight for third spaces for them? Because there's many more important and worthy causes to support, in my opinion.

Do people actually mean this when they say it? Or are they being polite?

Thanks for replying Clare, much appreciated.

It's a shame you couldn't answer my question though. Please let me know if you misunderstood what I meant and I'll try to rephrase, otherwise I'll assume you cannot answer it. And if you cannot answer it, you cannot say you are a woman.

I won't piss all over hard fought for rights and protections for fellow women just because someone feels they are a woman but is happy to keep their penis and says "trust me I won't hurt your dd with it". "Or you ". "Or a vulnerable woman ".
I'm sure the vast overwhelming majority won't. But I'm not prepared to take that risk.

DN4GeekinDerby

Thanks for that post. Your concerns have been echoed by several other trans people, on here.

They are aghast at how gender dysphoria seems to be getting written out of the narrative.

And I've now noticed a push to call autogynephilia another 'type' of gender dysphoria.

Which smacks to me of yet another layer of appropriation.

I've always seen them as completely different issues, with different motivations. And men with AGP, seem to have a very specific attitude to women that is unhealthy.

It's fairly worrying that there is a cohort of men who want to be accepted as women, who are as different from women, as they could possibly be.

AGP comes across as characterised by such a profound lack of affinity with women, that it lacks less commonality than displayed by even regular non trans men.

They certainly deserve more than to have dysphoia treated as a paperwork exercise as if it's the paperwork what causes gender dysphoria.

And this exactly.

Clare is aware of concerns about prisoners, women's safety and Agps. Clare doesn't think that lesbians are being harassed, but does think that refusing to sleep with one particular group is prejudice.

I couldn't really read the rest of the blog because of the constant references to Cis and Terfs.

clareflourish.wordpress.com/autogynephilia/

Well, doesn't that just put things into perspective, particularly the complaint about how 'unfriendly' we all are and the terms we use. Men get to choose what terms they call themselves. They also get to choose what terms they get to call women. Again, anything goes when it's being directed against women: threats of rape and violence, pictures of genitalia, but the other way round, and simply refusing to use the man-mandated terms is just as bad and worth a telling off.

terfisaslur.com/

Can you explain why the term TERF is overwhelmingly thrown at women, when violence to transpeople overwhelmingly comes at the hands of men?

And as for lesbians, please do not underestimate the pressure women have been put under by forums and feminist networks to conform, to be 'trans-allies'.

There is a certain type of man (and some of them are trans-identified) who have no problem shouting women down. In talking over them. In shunting women's issues off to the side and making it all about them. Maybe they don't even realise they're doing it.

If you actually give a damn about lesbians, read this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community

And if you're serious about breaking down gender trends and stereotypes, perhaps you should be taking a closer look at Stonewall and their advice and methodology, when they're equating gender-noncomformity as a type of trans, and pushing children towards medicalisation: children, and primarily young girls, many of whom are on the spectrum or may have been victims of abuse.

Do you think that's okay, when statistically 80% of them will grow out of any feelings of dysphoria? Many of those young girls would most likely have grown up to be lesbians. Let's be clear here: it's conversion therapy that Stonewall is pushing.

DN4 thank you. That is a great post. No one ever talks about transmen and the impact on them, it's as if they are invisible in the whole TRA movement. Which proves again how much this is about men colonising women's spaces and exerting power however that woman identifies. No rapist ever stops to ask how a woman identifies before assaulting.

If you're happier transitioned Clare great. No one here has the faintest problem with people dressing and presenting any way they like.

The question is around the rights of women and girls to not have their language, identity, sexualities, political AWS, women and lesbian groups and situations of nudity, intimate care and vulnerability comandeered and ordered by biological males. And as pp said, women and girls don't exists to be props in anyone else's validity or sexuality. The fact that this is even under question shows this movement is built on how little women and girls matter in our society.

Well this is a steaming pile of mendacious bullshit.

Autogynephilia does not exist. Female embodiment fantasies are perfectly normal fantasies, caused by the gender dysphoria of many pre-transition trans women. Crossdreaming men also fantasise in this way, and cis women often fantasise about their bodies being sexy.

A woman fantasizing about being sexy is not the same as a man fantasizing about being a sexy woman. Men can also be sexy. Women does not equal sexy.

Maybe women would be more "friendly" to you if you viewed them as people.

"Cis women often fantasise about being sexy". There are so many things wrong/stupid/patronising about this statement I don't know where to start.

Correction "their bodies being sexy". Still beyond stupid and arrogant.

Well, doesn't that just put things into perspective, particularly the complaint about how 'unfriendly' we all are and the terms we use.

Doesn't it just! We should not have the right to our own boundaries, privacy or consent. And if we point out that we intend to keep the right to our own boundaries, privacy and consent, we are rebuked by the prostate owner because this reveals our insufficient submissive socialisation.

Clare - I am not your refuge or your safe space. Get your own.

"Cis women often fantasise about being sexy".

The usual projection.

I saw Miranda Yardley say that Phil/Pippa Bunce confuses "feeling sexy" with "feeling like a woman". And that sums it up for me.

AGP comes across as characterised by such a profound lack of affinity with women, that it lacks less commonality than displayed by even regular non trans men.

This seems to be inevitable and baked into the fetish. If you had empathy with women, as a man, it would be hard to avoid noticing that they were having experiences that you weren't having and facing difficulties that you don't. But acknowledging that would also mean acknowledging that you're not a woman, which AGPs actively resist. Having empathy for women would mean telling us to shut up about periods, pregnancy, and breastfeeding unthinkable, but again, AGPs don't have those and that's a reminder that they're not women, so those things must not be discussed. Most women don't want the extremely sexualized treatment that AGPs crave, but if we say that then it gets right to the very essence of what AGP is all about, and thus any discussion of it become enraging. Unless the AGP has a kink for degradation too, in which case our traumatic experiences of rape and other sexual harassment and assault become something to wank to.

And this is why women instinctively fear having AGPs in our spaces, even if we don't know the term and don't yet have language to explain why they're making us so uncomfortable. It's like having a white person who fetishes plantation themed race play show up at an NAACP meeting.

I got a GRC, but needed to pay for a letter from one of those psychiatrists to confirm I was as I said I was. I shouldn't need a doctor to say who I am. I know who I am.

If you have gender dysphoria which is a condition of GRC, it needs diagnosing!

This is no different to any other kind of certification.

So I saw the psychiatrists, planned and prepared, and started expressing myself female in 2002. I have not presented male since.

Autogynephilia is an explicitly male fetish. An autogynephile is only presenting as male.

It's really not complicated, despite how you are trying to make it so.

You say you have autogynephilia and have a gender recognition certificate. Which not only makes a nonsense of the meaning of the word woman, it's incredibly dangerous to women.

You have managed to exploit a loophole, which forces other people to be complicit, and nonconsensual, in your fantasy.

I'm trying not to lose my temper, but frankly, Clare, I really don't know where you get off.

AGP does not exist. There is only gender dysphoria. Says someone who themselves says that they perhaps fit both definitions but don't want to classified as one as gender dysphoria is legitimate and AGP is not.

Well perhaps, BOTH exist in some degree. Certainly this is what women are seeing. The sexualisation of women is the very thing that women are constantly trying to fit back against as that is all they are seen as. This is what is threatening to them and makes them shut down and retreat into silence.

The idea that it is one or the other is somewhat disturbing and yet again is an another example of this totally black and white thinking.

The fact that you even have someone in this situation saying that AGP is not legitimate says it all. Its ironic to say the least.

Those with gender dysphoria will have their needs and concerns eventually thrown under the bus too. Unless of course, they are also AGP. Oh...

Did you look at the photos? 100% obvious AGP.

You have managed to exploit a loophole, which forces other people to be complicit, and nonconsensual, in your fantasy.

Exactly this. But we're not supposed to be allowed to point it out.

I'd dislike people like Clare less if they didn't insist on pissing on my leg and telling me it's raining, but again, it's part of being AGP.

Part of it is the getting away with outrageous stuff and people not being able to call you out on it.

I saw Miranda Yardley say that Phil/Pippa Bunce confuses "feeling sexy" with "feeling like a woman". And that sums it up for me.

This, I meant to say.