If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

Is this as big a fight as the suffragets a hundred years ago?

@DN4GeekinDerby excellent post early this morning.

I had a gay man tell me recently that trans women were the most hard done by.

Yet "We have high profile cases of trans men being targetted and their rapists - males of various identities - being very clear that they chose to rape those trans men because they're trans men. It's become a fucking power fantasy bragged about on various social media sites alongside raping TERFs." Where I'd the evidence for tans men being attacked so I can argue the case.

He actually said trans women were more likely to suffer male violence than women!

Anecdotal, but every young trans man I've spoken to who's trusted me enough to be honest has brought up incidents of being pressured or coerced into sex by trans women, often trans women much older than them. There's a definite pattern there, and that's on top of the shit they'll be dealing with from regular blokes.

We have high profile cases of trans men being targetted and their rapists - males of various identities - being very clear that they chose to rape those trans men because they're trans men

Oh fuck that's heartbreaking. What are we doing to these poor kids? They are just trying to find a safe place and they are being headfucked and abused from all directions. I don't know what to say.

Ps o am not doubting that trans men suffer more than trans women, just curious where the evidence on line is. I know in the USA it is trans women of colour who are often hsts (homosexual transsexuals) and are at risk from men. AGPs who hang around women are not going to be at the same kind of risk as trans women who are around males.

@AngryAttackKittens that is so horrible. The only trans man I have spoken to, on line, extensively, told me they have been raped.

Society is failing those kids on so many different levels, meanwhile trans women are winning awards for being stunning and brave for wearing nail polish.

Looking at Clare's site, I noticed Clare had blogged about the male nurse who felt they were an appropriate person to do a smear test on a woman who had requested a female.

clareflourish.wordpress.com/2018/01/02/a-nurse-who-is-trans/

I think we need to remember that even when women say they do not want a male person (or any person) looking at them or touching them or performing a procedure on them, there will always be people to tell them they are wrong!

Wrong to know what they do or do not want, and wrong to have an opinion.

Ironically, as well as trans women telling natal women what they should accept; men and women will also pile in with their 'opinions'.I debated this on a trans friendly' forum and guess what, the natal women there were all in favour of other women being forced to have smears from males.

What I find most worrying is that younger women and girls are being subject to gaslighting so that in the future they will find it harder to say NO!

I would now really, really like to know from those who are pro self id, how they would feel if their wishes about a very personal intimate procedure were ignored. And the rights of a male person to do just what they want to do is elevated.

Maybe the nurse was embarrassed, maybe unsure how to proceed! In my opinion this is even more reason NOT to give self id.

I know what to do, when my presence distresses or worries someone. Not that it does often, but it has done on occasion. I said or did the wrong thing. I apologized and I did not try and force the person to agree with me or get alongside with me. My own embarrassment does not override the other person's feelings.

If men can't get their head around this, in what universe could we ever trust them with self-id?

We need more practical things to do, who can we write to, what can we do, where can we send money?

I wrote to my MP, he was shit. He kept conflating 'trans rights' with gay rights. He is a knob head of the first order. Who else can I write to?

(I am hoping when we are looking at this in the rear-view mirror it will have made us stronger.

And again, people who are on the fence and who argue that anyone with a GRC is legit and deserves access to women's spaces needs to remember that Clare, who wrote the above, has a GRC. Having a GRC is no guarantee that a person is "genuine", whatever that means, or that the process ensures that people who have one will pose no threat to women.

AGP actively impedes the ability to empathize with women. And we can see the impact in everything TRAs do.

Ironically, as well as trans women telling natal women what they should accept; men and women will also pile in with their 'opinions'.I debated this on a trans friendly' forum and guess what, the natal women there were all in favour of other women being forced to have smears from males.

I genuinely cannot understand the sheer lack of empathy this shows. I'd probably be fine with a male nurse doing a smear test. I had to have some invasive tests during my second pregnancy thanks to a third degree in the first. The doctor was male. It was fine. But for me to then say all women should just put up with it? When the rate of sexual assault is as high as it is? What the fuck is wrong with people that they cannot comprehend that some women have had experiences that traumatise them?

There was a comment early on in a thread (I thought it was this one but can't seem to find it), some head-shaking piece of faux-concern witfuckery along the lines of: 'What on earth has happened to you that you should feel this way?' Are people really so devoid of empathy and imagination? Because it makes me despair.

'Third degree tear' I meant. I wasn't interrogated by the midwives or anything

Asking people to provide of resume of their personal traumas is disgusting, and anyone doing it should really stop and take a look at the kind of person they've become.

That being said, just for the record, I've been spared most of the worst things that can happen to women, and I'm still not willing to share intimate spaces with random men, or have a man do my smear test or breast exam if there's any way to avoid it. And I don't want AGPs in my intimate spaces because in terms of my current status of being spared the very worst kinds of trauma I'd kind of like to keep it that way. And I'd like the same for as many other women and girls as possible too. We don't owe men X number of rapes or Y incidents of child abuse before we're allowed to have boundaries that exclude them.

Bloody hell that post of Clare's......

The wants and feelings of the man person who has decided to transition don't just trump but erase the feelings, wants, needs and humanity of everyone else. Especially the ones with vaginas. Shame on those revolting swine who don't believe transubstantiation took place at the moment the man decided and think they have the right to feelings or actions that in any way prevent trans people doing precisely what they want at all times.

It's the narrative of abusive, self centred men with serious emotional literacy and social skill problems.

I'm pretty much at the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" point with these guys. You don't like the fact that women have boundaries? Don't care, not my problem. Life is pain, wannabe princess, to butcher a great movie.

It's the narrative of abusive, self centred men with serious emotional literacy and social skill problems.

Exactly this.

I'm pretty much at the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" point with these guys. You don't like the fact that women have boundaries? Don't care, not my problem.

This is where I am. I have no intention of doing other than being very blunt and plainspoken going forward.

Also, I won't be doing any more of the placatory "a loud minority of aggressive trans are ruining it for the silent majority". It isn't true. There is a tiny population of dysphoric trans people (and I continue to support these people - those who post here, my own friend, etc).

However, there is a much larger population of AGP trans people such as Clare. And an even larger population of allies who support the agenda of people such as Clare. I'm not going to be spending my time buggering about pretending these people don't constitute the vast majority of the trans side in this debate so that onlookers think I'm a nice person. I'm not setting out to be nice: I'm setting out to protect the rights of women. If anybody doesn't like that, tough.

Women ALWAYS have the right to say NO to anyone doing ANYTHING invasive if they feel uncomfortable with it.

They DO NOT have to justify it.

That blog is appalling.

"I think we need to remember that even when women say they do not want a male person (or any person) looking at them or touching them or performing a procedure on them, there will always be people to tell them they are wrong!"

Italian, this is true. There was a thread a few weeks ago where users were calling others silly and hysterical for not wanting a man or anyone to perform a smear test on them. And women and girls are told to get over their embarrassment when dealing with periods in public toilets.

Women and girls feeling aren't seen as important even by other women. Which is ironic given that this is driven by the gender feels of men.

I agree Lang. I don't believe anyone can believe that there are more dysphoric individuals than cross dressing men. I don't see why I should have to take it on faith that the man in front of me is dysphoric rather than a cross dresser. But I don't see why I show believe that the dysphoric man is safe to be around either.

And while I can see that it's beneficial to widen the trans umbrella, I'm not seeing individuals within it treated fairly with their best interests. All of the policies TRA want implementing seem to benefit cross dressing men rather than children, for example.

My question is, how many of the women taking the "tiny minority of bad apples ruining things for the silent majority" line actually believe it, and how many are just saying it because they think they're supposed to, female socialization, or it's a strategic attempt at framing? Because it's clearly, obviously not true. Dysphoric old school transsexuals have always been a tiny percentage of the population (that we were able to work out a compromise with, before AGPs took over). AGPs, like other fetishists, are a dime a dozen. Clearly there are far more people in category B than in category A. Ever since I first started reading these debates on mumsnet I've wondered why people kept claiming otherwise. Allowing AGPs to "count" as trans inevitably means that they'll shout over everyone else, because there are more of them and they're far more aggressive.

My question is, how many of the women taking the "tiny minority of bad apples ruining things for the silent majority" line actually believe it, and how many are just saying it because they think they're supposed to, female socialization, or it's a strategic attempt at framing?

I think in many cases it is a stepping stone on the road to #peaktrans. People see some shit that makes it blindingly obvious that the "stunning, brave" narrative they've seen on endless BBC3 propaganda docs is actually total bullshit. And they think they've got to #peaktrans. But they haven't yet understood that this realisation is just base camp and there's a long, long way to go.

Clare also used the "what about the lesbians" argument (Hampstead Ponds) . I am really fucking sick of this one. Its not even close to the same thing. I'm not a lesbian but I do know that lesbians are women. A woman in a woman's space doing her woman thing (changing, showering, swimming etc) is not the same as a (likely) predatory man who has forced his way into that space, whatever her sexual orientation. She isn't breaching boundaries for her own validation for one thing.
She may fancy women, so what? How does that suddenly equate to her being a predator? Oh, it doesn't. Whereas we KNOW many of these men are. That's why they want to be there. The lesbian is there for the same reason we all are. She's a bloody woman. She's there to be safe. And frankly, from want I have seen, she has as much reason to need that safe space, as any other woman. Maybe more (cotton ceiling ffs)
If she's attracted to some of the women around her, so what? I'd rather she felt safe. I'd rather we all felt safe.

I'm pretty much at the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" point with these guys. You don't like the fact that women have boundaries? Don't care, not my problem.

Same here.

Yes, Fluffy. I care not one jot if there are lesbians in my changing room or public toilets, what with them being women and all.

This is about men who have shown a complete disregard for women being allowed to just wander in whenever they like, to do whatever they like.

How dare these men start on with "what about the lesbians..?" Fuck off those men.

This is a series of tweets just now from Lisa Muggeridge. I think they explain very well what women instinctively understand about dodgy men (even when they are presenting feminine) and what the AGP male will never, can never, understand, and why dispensing with legal protections in favour of self-ID is such a disaster:

A sexual predator is more dangerous if they lack insight into their behaviour. Cannot perceive others boundaries and think they have the right to cross them. Most trans women believing they are lesbians fall into this category.

You have to listen to them. When they tell you they cannot perceive why this is a problem. It's their mental disorder speaking. No point arguing with it. Law has to protect from it.

They get angry when faced with evidence of their disorder and behave irrationally. There is risk of violence, rape and murder here that lesbians have a right to protection from. This is not blokes pretending its mentally disordered people with no ability to manage risk they pose.

They genuinely believe rejection is violence. They feel it that way. Lesbians invalidate them by existing. This us very dangerous.

Am not using mental disorder as a slur. That is what it is when a man believes he is a lesbian with a right to validation in form of sex. Dangerous mental disorder.

When you have a trans woman on Twitter saying he can't perceive the limits of his identity, he isn't pretending. That's where risk to women and kids is.