If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

And what's more worrying, are the number of people who go along with it all. Why are politicians and policy makers ignoring this behaviour?

Not just ignoring it - encouraging it?

We never pay any-one Dane-geld,
No matter how trifling the cost;
For the end of that game is oppression and shame,
And the nation that plays it is lost

I've sent Claire's blog to my mp.

Saying what, Terfinator?

I think it's a good thing to do, bte, I just wonder if it will be taken seriously.

*btw

After I initially wrote to my MP, two years ago, I was sent a reply from Caroline Dinedage (to whom my MP had forwarded the letter).

She claimed that the existence of autogynephilia is controversial.

Despite me linking to sites discussing it, and copy and pasting dozens of quotes about it. Including those where AGP individuals were saying if their therapists only knew, they would never get feminising hormones.

It's been successfully brushed under the carpet.

Until now. Their complacency in the form of the legitimacy of 'Transgender', is making them careless. Blogs like Clare's are becoming far more common.

Even the Guardian has published stories about obvious autogynephiles, under the guise of transgenderism. Maybe, without realising, and putting two and two together, that they are talking about a damaging sexual fetish.

Oxygen is what this subject needs. And it is, at last, getting it.

Is it just me, or does it feel like there's been the tiniest bit of a step back from people like Stella Creasey and Owen Jones etc on this? It does sort of feel like there's been a bit of a shift, but I'm not sure if it's just wishful thinking, and there's been a lot of other crap going on lately.

Oxygen is what this subject needs. And it is, at last, getting it.

^this

Until now. Their complacency in the form of the legitimacy of 'Transgender', is making them careless. Blogs like Clare's are becoming far more common.

Of course they are. Because they know they can get away with it. And they will push as far as they can. They have no real idea what "going too far" means. They take their cues from the echo chamber of trans affirmation.

@TerfyTheCuntingTerf the women telling other women to accept a smear test from a trans identified male would claim to believe that make was a woman. But what I find so hard to understand is if a woman was alarmed by me, even as another woman, I would not try to force them to accept 'care' from me. The reason these natal women want to tell other women what to accept I believe is not because they see trans women as women, but because the biggest crime in their book is excluding or upsetting trans identified males.

@BigDeskBob "Women and girls feeling aren't seen as important even by other women. Which is ironic given that this is driven by the gender feels of men."

I think we need to remember foot binding was done by women fearful men would not marry their daughters. FGM is done by women fearful men will not marry their daughters.

Women have been and are, sadly, complicit in their sex's abuse.

It is sometimes even painted as liberation! Why should women be embarrased to be naked or undressed in front of men! As if what women feel (any sense of modesty or privacy) is wrong and oppressive!

Italiangreyhound

Excellent post. Once you see it, it can never be unseen.

9 pages. not one coherent argument in favour of gender self ID.

One cry of 'misandry'.
Several posts ask 'why cant women be nice, what would it cost you?'
One trans person who identifies as a woman but not with women.

Not one pro self ID person has criticized men, demanded men 'be nice' or expand the bandwith of masculinity.

Again and again I come back to the same question.
Can you mandate belief?
Can you codify into law the idea that some people can mind over matter themselves out of material reality and into the opposite sex, and must be treated accordingly?
It is like transubstantiation. A belief that no one actually believes.
Will you allow people to drug and mutilate children based on this belief that no one believes?
How do you intend to punish the women who refuse to submit?

Someone needs to ask these questions on a national platform. Politicians need to be held to account.

Yy, Italian. You are completely right

RE The bits from Lisa Muggeridge that LangCleg posted, thank you! This is exactly what I keep trying to say about men with AGP. They're not simply as likely to be dangerous as any random male person, they're more likely to be dangerous. Which is why opening the doors of women's spaces to them by including them in the "trans umbrella" is a disaster, and has prompted so many women to push back. We instinctively know that these men are a danger to us, because their behavior is basically a giant collection of red flags. We are being told by the media and politicians that saying so is bigoted and offensive. This is gaslighting on a massive scale, and an attempt to appease aggressive, dangerous, mentally ill people by just letting them do whatever they want because it's easier than attempting to reason with them.

It's also ethically wrong and an abandonment of the responsibility that politicians, media, etc have towards the public.

This is exactly what I keep trying to say about men with AGP. They're not simply as likely to be dangerous as any random male person, they're more likely to be dangerous.

Me too!

The most common paraphilia among sex offenders is cross dressing

and trans ideology includes cross dressers as bona fide trans

ergo self-ID means many sex offenders will claim a legally unimpeachable trans identity

ergo women and children will be at far greater risk from sex offenders.

This is not a difficult logical thought process. This is an undeniable consequence of self-ID. It can't be said loudly enough.

But Lisa is so, so good at explaining the dynamics of it all in plain terms. Her whole feed today is worth reading.

It honestly couldn't be more straightforward. In the days of yore in which some naive people think we still live, AGPs generally weren't allowed to transition, because of the evil gatekeeping. Then they pushed to get the rules changed, and now they are allowed to transition, but are still moaning about gatekeeping because fetishism plus male entitlement = how dare the world not give me what I want when I want it, this is an outrage, etc.

What really gets me is how the laws could have been written in the first place. Had these politicians never heard of cross dressers?

Have the been living in a cave?

Have the been living in a cave?

Someone said on another thread that men are used to benevolently ignoring each others' sexual weirdnesses.

I thought that made a lot of sense. And might be part of the reason why so many of them now seem so affronted by women's refusal to do the same?

What really gets me is how the laws could have been written in the first place.
They chose to go with a sloppy law instead of doing their job, I suppose.

That's definitely part of the picture. Why can't we just play along quietly and be the ball that other men are knocking about rather than insisting on being players in the debate/society ourselves? That's misandry, that is.

The reason these natal women want to tell other women what to accept I believe is not because they see trans women as women, but because the biggest crime in their book is excluding or upsetting trans identified males.

I think this is spot on.

There's no way anyone actually believes they are actual women but some women are so socialised to be nice to ken that they cannot comprehend challenging it.

And there are so many women who believe the narrative that men are just a bit useless and hapless and vulnerable and where would they be without women to look after them, bless them... and the whole idea of troubled men just send some women into empathy overdrive as they set out on a rescue mission...

That