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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

This woman is all of us.

412 replies

CAAKE · 17/02/2018 02:58

Lily Madigan speaking to a rapt audience at an Enfield North CLP meeting.

Photo is from this tweet -
twitter.com/enfieldnorthclp/status/964240546977013760

This woman is all of us.
OP posts:
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14
Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 11:37

The vast majority of the 8 billion people on the planet did not get the memo about the me/she/he thing.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 11:38

Fuck. Every time I start to feel more positive about the threat to women's rights and how people are being silenced something like this happens and I'm sick to my stomach again. I was proud to be a member of Mumsnet earlier.

Nailed it @TerfyTheCuntingTerf

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 11:39

Duh - bold fail on Terry's quote..

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/02/2018 11:40

But surely it's part of the debate? How can I say 'I don't think I should have to refer to an intact teenage boy as 'she' just because he signed a piece of paper' if I am required to call him 'she'?

That's not goady - that's debate. Surely you can recognise goady MN? you get enough practise

BeyondTerfyCassandra · 20/02/2018 11:55

Kate, I think Darth was referring to Muscato's IWD post which said "suck my dick" and whether we must call Muscato by Muscatos preferred pronouns when discussing it. Though I'd like some sort of pager to go off should Muscato ever come to Mn! Grin

I don't think mn have changed any rules here - it's been okay to use sexed pronouns when talking in about transpeople general, but not when talking about a specific individual for a while. With there then being flexibility as to how strictly it's enforced when talking about rapists etc.

I guess the issue here is that LM's misogyny and narcissistic behaviour puts them in the "bad person" category for some (I know it's not that simple of course - I am simplifying) so they feel it should be okay, whereas for mn the line is that LM is not a criminal so "misgendering" isn't okay under the possible criminal-flexibility rule.

I am still curious if LMs cronies are reporting here though...? If it's just posts that misgender rather than ones that cross the line about LMs behaviour.

Mouthandtrousersall · 20/02/2018 11:58

Misgendering is a meaningless word. I can't get my head around how high maintenance these people are. They are embarrassing.

PissedOffWoman · 20/02/2018 11:59

I am beginning to think that MN has been warned/threatened with legal action by TIMs/MRAs.

We live in a society of free speech. Not some Orwellian, dystopian nightmare.

Yet...

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 11:59

@BeyondTerfyCassandra

Yes - that's exactly what I meant.

Carriemac · 20/02/2018 12:07

i find 'cis' very offensive and would like MN to ban its use

MrPan · 20/02/2018 12:09

I'd think cis and use of individual pronouns are two separate circs. One is personal to one person (LM), the other isn't.

hesterton · 20/02/2018 12:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrPan · 20/02/2018 12:12

Of course that doesn't change the situation that Liam is a biological male who hates women.

KateMumsnet · 20/02/2018 12:15

@BeyondTerfyCassandra

Kate, I think Darth was referring to Muscato's IWD post which said "suck my dick" and whether we must call Muscato by Muscatos preferred pronouns when discussing it. Though I'd like some sort of pager to go off should Muscato ever come to Mn! Grin

Aha yes I see Grin - though see below.

@BeyondTerfyCassandra

I don't think mn have changed any rules here - it's been okay to use sexed pronouns when talking in about transpeople general, but not when talking about a specific individual for a while. With there then being flexibility as to how strictly it's enforced when talking about rapists etc.

I guess the issue here is that LM's misogyny and narcissistic behaviour puts them in the "bad person" category for some (I know it's not that simple of course - I am simplifying) so they feel it should be okay, whereas for mn the line is that LM is not a criminal so "misgendering" isn't okay under the possible criminal-flexibility rule.

Beyond, this seems like a good general upsum. Again, must stress that we think our TGs cover all of this - and that it's in the interests of those who wish to discuss this issue not to press for a rigid line.

MrPan · 20/02/2018 12:15

Both of those qualities are evidentially correct. No goading or wrongness there. To ban/remove for stating plain facts has a very unpleasant history in the world.

cista · 20/02/2018 12:21

Let's just use 'they/ them' so that the discussion can move on?

MrPan · 20/02/2018 12:24

Yep okay. No-one wishes to be banned but, it's still a strectch.

WhenWillThisMadnessEnd · 20/02/2018 12:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hesterton · 20/02/2018 12:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 20/02/2018 12:36

For what it's worth, here is my overall view.

Lily Madigan, on a personal level, seems to me to be a remarkably unpleasant person with an MRA agenda that LM attempts to conceal via a trans identity. There may, or may not, be underlying vulnerability there but, such is the harm LM is doing, this should take a back seat to analysis of LM's actions. As time goes on, the MRA agenda becomes more and more obvious as an emboldened LM becomes less and less cautious. This is my impression based on observing the furore around LM.

But more important is the way in which LM is emblematic of an aggressive faction within the Labour party, which comprises transactivists, sexist men, and pomo-brainwashed allies. The Labour leadership does not appear to recognise the damage this faction is doing. Or perhaps it does but believes it can be contained within a limited social media echo chamber, so won't affect its vote in any significant way.

These things seem to me to be considerably more significant than whether or not I rearrange my syntax to be somewhat awkward but to avoid what appears to be blasphemous use of pronouns to anyone following the gender identity religion.

MNHQ - I can see you are in difficulties. I don't wish to add to them but, as AngryAttackKittens said on another thread, I think most of us here have reached the point where any capitulation is tantamount to negotiating with terrorists. I hope you can see that many of us aren't prepared to do this.

vesuvia · 20/02/2018 12:37

Mumsnet is a business not a democracy. I see no recent shift in the administrators' application of their longstanding red line in the sand about not "misgendering" transgender male people. Their club, their rules, I suppose.

Mumsnet also have to operate within an allegedly democratic state in which all the main political parties support the Orwellian lie that "transwomen are women" and where all the main political parties also support the proposal that all barriers should be removed to allow male people to self-identify as women. In such a socio-political climate, I'm not surprised that Mumsnet feel they have to tread carefully around the feelings of male transgender people.

I'm a long-term very gender-critical feminist and I don't agree with Mumsnet's misgendering policy but I'm still grateful to Mumsnet for facilitating the discussions around transgenderism.

Terftastic · 20/02/2018 12:37

They/them doesn't sound right to me when referring to a person in the singular.

It just shows how mad this situation really is. Science, grammar, the definition of words - all meaningless. It's truly Orwellian.

I can't do it either.

hackmum · 20/02/2018 12:40

Great post, LangCleg.

DarthArts · 20/02/2018 12:50

Spot on @LangCleg

gingergenius · 20/02/2018 12:55

The point is, stop telling other people what their experience is. You havent walked in her very young shoes.

But she and other TRA's are doungbexactly that: trying to tell us our innate female-ness is less valid. It must be hard to be trans. It's also hard being a natal woman. Lily hasn't walked in our shoes and whilst her experiences are unique to someone who is trans, I share a set of experiences that natal women understand instinctively - by virtue of our SEX. Not our gender. Lily Madigan does not nor cannot.

TheGoldenBough · 20/02/2018 12:57

Well said Lang

And

Ive never minded using female pronouns for transwomen in the past. All this is making me feel a sense of huge unfairness and lack of trust in transwomen which I never had before. I would have fought for their rights to have the pronoun of their choice, but I don't feel I can now. I can't bear to use female pronouns for someone who has a Twitter account named for hating ('cis') women

I'm afraid to say that this is also how I now feel.

It is quite obvious to me that that this was never about these people joining us. It was only ever about 'replacing'.

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